[JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
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- Lord_Montague
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[JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
Judge,
I bring before you the issue of a missile attack mounted by Kovac against Koldoff's airbase specifically as well as any other suspected airstrips. This attack claims to have been successfully repulsed by Chrimigules in his post here:
These missiles were version III of the infamous IPM which can be found here:
http://www.ociagov.proboards.com/index. ... hread=1215
It is clear from the configuration of the missiles and their designs that they are ballistic missiles. To give an historical example, they are more akin to the V2 rather than the V1. Ballistic missiles are impossible to shoot down by aircraft.
Therefore, despite Kovac's godmodding which can be easily edited out of the attack move on his or your own initiative, Chrim's defence and claims to shoot all the missiles out of the sky should be declared invalid.
Thank you,
I bring before you the issue of a missile attack mounted by Kovac against Koldoff's airbase specifically as well as any other suspected airstrips. This attack claims to have been successfully repulsed by Chrimigules in his post here:
Chrimigules himself asks what type of missiles were used despite his assertion to have shot them all down."LT, picking up missile launches in central Ocia." CPO Pace reported. "Counting seventeen-- no, twenty-one missiles launched. Heading West Northwest."
Lieutenant Phaedrias clicked over to the appropriate scrambled radio channel. "Patrol, Manticore 3. Tracking missiles launched from central Ocia, possibly heading towards Koldoff Airbase--"
"--Confirmed." CPO Pace interrupted on the internal comm. "Koldoff Airbase. Missiles now marked hostile."
"Missiles now marked hostile." Lt Phaedrias repeated to the Patrol leader. He tapped on his station and the relevant RADAR data was transferred to the patrol fighters.
"Understood, Manticore 3. Moving to intercept. Patrol fighters, Weapons Tight."
---
"Manticore 3, this is Central. Pull back and take position over Petrynsk." Lt Paleon said into his handset. He held the handset against his shoulder to muffle the microphone and called out to the Comm Operator, "launch alert fighters. All other fighters on standby."
"Aye, sir." CPO Hadrian said. Flipping a switch on her panel, she relayed the orders. "Alert fighters, launch. Repeat, alert fighters launch."
Lt Paleon scratched at his nose. He glanced to his left and right, and then inserted his finger to remove the excess mucus.
---
"Fox Three." Lt Hypseus stated as his missile launched. The missile raced forward, leaving a squiggling trail behind it.
First missile entered terminal stage. "Pitbull." First target destroyed. "Fox Three." As his second missile launched a few seconds later. Lt Hypseus had the tail end of the gauntlet that the patrol fighters had set up to block the path that the Ocians' missiles were taking. So far, the other fighters had taken down nine of them. Second missile entered terminal stage. "Pitbull." Second target destroyed. Hypseus made a sharp pitchback and pushed on the throttle. His third target was coming into position. Target locked onto. "Fox Three -- Maddog."
The patrol fighters regrouped. No enemy fighters detected, but they remained in a defensive posture. Alert fighters were in position further along the line. They had only ten Ocian missiles to handle among themselves. Third target destroyed. Nine Ocian missiles to handle.
These missiles were version III of the infamous IPM which can be found here:
http://www.ociagov.proboards.com/index. ... hread=1215
It is clear from the configuration of the missiles and their designs that they are ballistic missiles. To give an historical example, they are more akin to the V2 rather than the V1. Ballistic missiles are impossible to shoot down by aircraft.
Therefore, despite Kovac's godmodding which can be easily edited out of the attack move on his or your own initiative, Chrim's defence and claims to shoot all the missiles out of the sky should be declared invalid.
Thank you,
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
- chrimigules
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
Says cruise missiles. "Short to long range cruise guidance missiles."
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- Lord_Montague
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
Mr. Kovac also calls E-3 Sentry aircraft E-3 Century Aircraft.
You look at those designs and tell me they're cruise missiles because they're not like any cruise missile I've ever seen.
You look at those designs and tell me they're cruise missiles because they're not like any cruise missile I've ever seen.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
- chrimigules
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
Could draw them up like ducks, frankly. If they're cruise missiles, then they're cruise missiles. Besides, the Orbats value them as long range and/or supersonic cruise missiles.
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
Chrim even if they were designed as a conventional cruise missile, have you ever heard of an F-16 being able to shoot down a tomahawk? My post (if anything) had minimal god moding in the way which I said that the missiles 'reached the target' However I did not say "all targets destroyed."
- Lord_Montague
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
It also says in that definition that 10pts is for "anything supersonic or over 1000km range". Those paramaters cover ballistic missiles.
The duck logic doesn't work either. Design matters.
And Matt, it is entirely possible for a tomahawk to be shot down by a fighter.
The duck logic doesn't work either. Design matters.
And Matt, it is entirely possible for a tomahawk to be shot down by a fighter.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
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In Victory; Unbearable.
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
It hasn't ever been done...because they have a stealthy design which is hard to detect...its very unlikely.
- chrimigules
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
Cruise missile. A cruise missile is very different from a ballistic missile. A cruise missile flies straight, while a ballistic missile goes up and down. Ballistic missiles are typically a great deal larger than a cruise missile, they have a great deal more kinetic energy because they fall out of the sky in order to hit their target. Essentially, a cruise missile is a flying bomb, while a ballistic missile is like a meteor. Mixing them up is worse than mixing up an A-10 with an F-22, or a field gun with a howitzer. At least when Kovac says "E-3 Century Aircraft", he gets the aircraft part right.Cruise missile: 10 (BGM-109 Tomahawk, anything supersonic or over 1000km range)
Oh, and so now these missiles are like Tomahawks... interesting.
And Kovac's post is godmodding, because the summary says:
That sounds pretty final.Aircraft and the runways themselves are destroyed
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
Regarding the missile issue, I had asked earlier about the word 'or' in the definition. Was it an 'or' or was is supposed to be an 'and'? I definitely think that the missiles need to be recosted and worded better.
My two cents on the issue:
As for the issue here, the charter states cruise missiles are 10 points. It says nothing about intercontinental precision missiles or ICBMs or the kind that Ocia has used here. Its legality in this war, I leave to Guido to decide. But it certainly needs to be costed differently to cruise missiles. I suppose that's again the same issue of missiles in general and needs more work.
Cruise missiles, i found on wiki, are stated to have a non-ballistic trajectory. Maybe that might help figure out whats going on.
Edit:
Oh, Chrim, you need to have some of the missiles get through and hit the targets (assuming off course that you are allowed to take down those missiles in the first place).
Actually, come to think of it, the chances of your success and/or capability to shoot the missiles down depends upon the speed of the Ocian missile itself. if its speed is larger than your missiles, then you dont stand chance.
also, i think those missiles (if IPM) are going to have a huge speed compared to your units finding their presence, dispatching aircrafts to them, firing missile, your missile travelling time. during which the IPM would have hit the target already.
if those missiles are normal cruise missiles, then they are probably a bit harder to detect, bit harder to keep track off and again your missile speed versus Ocian missile speed is a question.
My two cents on the issue:
As for the issue here, the charter states cruise missiles are 10 points. It says nothing about intercontinental precision missiles or ICBMs or the kind that Ocia has used here. Its legality in this war, I leave to Guido to decide. But it certainly needs to be costed differently to cruise missiles. I suppose that's again the same issue of missiles in general and needs more work.
Cruise missiles, i found on wiki, are stated to have a non-ballistic trajectory. Maybe that might help figure out whats going on.
Edit:
Oh, Chrim, you need to have some of the missiles get through and hit the targets (assuming off course that you are allowed to take down those missiles in the first place).
Actually, come to think of it, the chances of your success and/or capability to shoot the missiles down depends upon the speed of the Ocian missile itself. if its speed is larger than your missiles, then you dont stand chance.
also, i think those missiles (if IPM) are going to have a huge speed compared to your units finding their presence, dispatching aircrafts to them, firing missile, your missile travelling time. during which the IPM would have hit the target already.
if those missiles are normal cruise missiles, then they are probably a bit harder to detect, bit harder to keep track off and again your missile speed versus Ocian missile speed is a question.
- Lord_Montague
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
The charter does allow for ICBMs and therefore ballistic missiles. In the unit costing section, a submarine capable of launching of ICBMS is costed at 1500. This costing was written before missiles were to be costed at all so each ICBM under the new scheme would be 500 / 16 = 31.25.
However, according to wikipedia the IPM is not an ICBM and is several steps from being one. That would mean a reduced price. It is up the judge to name that price for the duration of this war before the board meets to review any report the judge provides.
However, according to wikipedia the IPM is not an ICBM and is several steps from being one. That would mean a reduced price. It is up the judge to name that price for the duration of this war before the board meets to review any report the judge provides.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
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- Guido Zambelis
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
Is costing all a judgment is required upon? This thread didn't start very clearly and it hasn't got any better...
- chrimigules
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
All documentation concerning the missiles that the Ocians fired quite clearly indicates that they are cruise missiles. They are costed to be cruise missiles. They are referred to as cruise missiles. The Ocians are now insisting that they are ballistic missiles, and thus cannot be shot down.
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
I feel I should also bring up with the judge that the ranges of the Ocian Ajax missiles and civil defence warning radars are incorrect and unfair.
As the maps stated in Kovac's OrBat show, the centre point of the circles (denoting range) is where the bases for missiles and radar stations respectively lie. Numerous centrepoints of these circles lie outside Ocia.
Can the Herr Rikhter (Judge Guido) please remedy this?
As the maps stated in Kovac's OrBat show, the centre point of the circles (denoting range) is where the bases for missiles and radar stations respectively lie. Numerous centrepoints of these circles lie outside Ocia.
Can the Herr Rikhter (Judge Guido) please remedy this?
- Guido Zambelis
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Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
Max: Until he tries to use them I won't be issuing a ruling.
The Ocian party now have the opportunity to present a defence in which they presumably wish to prove that these are ballistic missiles.
The Ocian party now have the opportunity to present a defence in which they presumably wish to prove that these are ballistic missiles.
Re: [JP] Montague (representing Kovac) vs Chrimigules - Koldoff
Herr Rikhter,
Kovac has himself admitted that these are, and I quotel,
Kovac has himself admitted that these are, and I quotel,
and not ballistic missiles in this post here.short to long range cruise guidance missiles