Notice: Trade Equality Act
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Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
How ironic that you would regard SCUE as a failure, while opposing a more top-down approach regarding its administration.Malliki wrote:I think we can declare the SCUE to be a monumental failure. Given the time and energy put into it and the number of people and nations that have joined, the level of activity in it is discouraging. Perhaps the idea of a "real" economy should be abandoned?
If you have so little confidence, you should feel no obligation to retain your membership. The bank will not be dismantled because some of its more useless members feel discouraged.
""YJD: Een Recwar is prima zolang Bijaro niet deelneemt."
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Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
The SCUE is, on the contrary, a resounding success, as a system to facilitate the management of micronational economies. It is the micronational economies that have failed due to a general lack of fundamental and structural supply and demand for the system to manage.Malliki wrote:I think we can declare the SCUE to be a monumental failure. Given the time and energy put into it and the number of people and nations that have joined, the level of activity in it is discouraging. Perhaps the idea of a "real" economy should be abandoned?
Lord Erion, MNN, Chancellor of the Bovic Empire of the Natopian Nation.
Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
I don't understand why you see taxation to force countries to make transfers as a perfectly reasonable option whilst you insist that ensuring that there actually are interesting things to spend money on is not a task for the SCUE. You can't have it both ways. Either the SCUE is just a purely objective provider of a monetary system, or it is an institution that seeks to promote trade and financial interaction.I don't think it's all that strange, though I may have gone about it in a strange way. I would rather that the bank behave pro-actively to encourage members to use the currency, and I would rather that this occur without forming any alternative organizations or banks. Real positive change needs to occur within the existing framework.
If you take the first definition of the SCUE, this proposal doesn't make any sense, if you want the SCUE to be the second, I think you should focus more on positive meassures to make the international economy more interesting, instead of starting with a series of taxes.
Porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra.
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Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
Your argument only cares to focus on half of my proposal. If your actually read my post, you'll see that there is a tax on inactive members (members not using their currency), and a reimbursement for active members (members using their currency). The tax removes wealth from those members who aren't using it, and gives it to members who are using it. When you get right down to the heart of it, it's not that different than what the MCS does. It allows for territorial expansion for more active members, while restricting land for more inactive members. Totally inactive members eventually lose all of their land. Do you see what I'm getting at here?Jack wrote:I don't understand why you see taxation to force countries to make transfers as a perfectly reasonable option whilst you insist that ensuring that there actually are interesting things to spend money on is not a task for the SCUE. You can't have it both ways. Either the SCUE is just a purely objective provider of a monetary system, or it is an institution that seeks to promote trade and financial interaction.
""YJD: Een Recwar is prima zolang Bijaro niet deelneemt."
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Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
There's been a general sentiment, expressed on and off, that the early SCUE member nations have too much money and the later SCUE members not enough (which is, of course, because the SCUE was set up with individuals as the primary unit, national membership is just a proxy for this, and a lot of the later member nations are made up largely of citizens from the earlier one); I see this proposal as a clever way to help potentially address that. Just giving people money because they join clearly doesn't promote economic activity (or I wouldn't have to have been hopelessly peddling this document so much), but giving a bit more money to the people who are actually using it - that might well help.
At the least, this has actually provoked more discussion on the SCUE and micronational economics than ... just about anything else in the last couple years, even the election of a new administrator.
At the least, this has actually provoked more discussion on the SCUE and micronational economics than ... just about anything else in the last couple years, even the election of a new administrator.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
We have proposed a system where transactions are been promoted due to extra revenue the buyer will gain. viewtopic.php?f=69&t=7700
If you want more participants in transactions you need to award them in stead of punishment.
Taxation should be for an individual country on a company, not a organisation that taxes countries. Unrealistic.
Its not the country that does the transactions, but the companies, and that the exchange taxes countries op inactivity ? Just remove after x months of inactivity ?
If you want more participants in transactions you need to award them in stead of punishment.
Taxation should be for an individual country on a company, not a organisation that taxes countries. Unrealistic.
Its not the country that does the transactions, but the companies, and that the exchange taxes countries op inactivity ? Just remove after x months of inactivity ?
Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
No reimbursement without taxation, apparently, so I don't see how that's a point here. I also don't see the comparison between this situation and the MCS. I for one didn't get any money from SCUE, but I earned it all myself. The largest chunk of money I got as director of Panopticon, during the time money was abolished in Elwynn. I also got money by selling a slave and a tractor. If you look at it, I think you can say that I am one of the most innovative traders on Micras... I do not owe the SCUE anything.Duke Sinclair wrote:Your argument only cares to focus on half of my proposal. If your actually read my post, you'll see that there is a tax on inactive members (members not using their currency), and a reimbursement for active members (members using their currency). The tax removes wealth from those members who aren't using it, and gives it to members who are using it. When you get right down to the heart of it, it's not that different than what the MCS does. It allows for territorial expansion for more active members, while restricting land for more inactive members. Totally inactive members eventually lose all of their land. Do you see what I'm getting at here?
Porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra.
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Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
Again, your idea of "no reimbursement without taxation" is false. If you look at the proposal, you'll see that every nation is eligible to receive reimbursements while avoiding taxes. It is possible under my proposal for every nation to 100% avoid taxes, while receiving reimbursements. You and your nations, if you are really the great economic innovator you fancy yourself as, might feasibly avoid taxes entirely, for the entire course of this policy, while receiving reimbursements. The tax would inevitably apply to dead nations like Presburn, of course since they have no hope of economic activity, but it is conceivable that were there no dead nations on the bank, every single member could receive reimbursements, while none incur a tax. This is pretty clearly outlined in my original post.Jack wrote:No reimbursement without taxation, apparently, so I don't see how that's a point here. I also don't see the comparison between this situation and the MCS. I for one didn't get any money from SCUE, but I earned it all myself. The largest chunk of money I got as director of Panopticon, during the time money was abolished in Elwynn. I also got money by selling a slave and a tractor. If you look at it, I think you can say that I am one of the most innovative traders on Micras... I do not owe the SCUE anything.
The connection between this policy and the policy of the MCS is not difficult to grasp, if you give it some objective thought. The MCS gives you land when you apply, SCUE gives you money when you apply. MCS allows active nations to expand territory, this policy would allow active nations to expand their wealth. MCS takes land from inactive nations, this policy would allow the bank to take wealth from inactive nations. It seems that you're so emotionally opposed to a reasonable proposal that you fail to see how similar the two policies actually are. Would you claim that the MCS doesn't have the right to take land away from you, even though you claim land on the MCS' map?
""YJD: Een Recwar is prima zolang Bijaro niet deelneemt."
Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
So why not just delete dead nations, if that's the idea? You most certainly are not going to spark more economic interaction with this, some countries will perhaps make a forced transfer, and that's it. I think this is just a way too large newspaper to kill a tiny, tiny spider. Especially because the SCUE can create money without limit, there is no need for taxation at all.
And, as I said, I haven't got anything of the money in my account from the SCUE, so I guess I do not have a responsibility towards SCUE either, apart from you providing the website. That's where my problem lies. The MCS is the owner of the map, and has a different set up in being directly involved in who has what piece of land. The SCUE just created money, and the money got transferred. I don't have money that was created for me by the SCUE, it is money that already existed. It's a huge difference.
Besides, you still haven't answered my other point, namely that you could have done other things to make economic transactions more appealing to nations.
And, as I said, I haven't got anything of the money in my account from the SCUE, so I guess I do not have a responsibility towards SCUE either, apart from you providing the website. That's where my problem lies. The MCS is the owner of the map, and has a different set up in being directly involved in who has what piece of land. The SCUE just created money, and the money got transferred. I don't have money that was created for me by the SCUE, it is money that already existed. It's a huge difference.
Besides, you still haven't answered my other point, namely that you could have done other things to make economic transactions more appealing to nations.
Porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra.
Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
... better yet this specific proposal could have been discussed before it was implemented, even with an effective date in the medium-term.
Formerly His Imperial Niftiness Yardistanislaus du Grifos, former Kaiser of Shireroth
Now just Vilhelm Benkern, Count of Mar Sara
Suzerain of Hawshire // Peil̊åkti an Ixraǔtn | Protector of the Safir // Xonuti Shawa 'allumi Sanilla'i'i | King of the Free State of Sanilla
Now just Vilhelm Benkern, Count of Mar Sara
Suzerain of Hawshire // Peil̊åkti an Ixraǔtn | Protector of the Safir // Xonuti Shawa 'allumi Sanilla'i'i | King of the Free State of Sanilla
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Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
Judging by the amount of nations that have actually expressed support for this policy, I'm curious why you think this wouldn't prompt economic activity. Because you personally don't like it? Or because you actually believe countries wouldn't go for it? How would outright removal of nations be more beneficial to trade than a policy which allows for reimbursement for activity? Just because SCUE can create currency, that doesn't mean it ought to. If the bank can put money to use which is not currently being used, by a system of taxes and reimbursements, then it should.Jack wrote:So why not just delete dead nations, if that's the idea? You most certainly are not going to spark more economic interaction with this, some countries will perhaps make a forced transfer, and that's it. I think this is just a way too large newspaper to kill a tiny, tiny spider. Especially because the SCUE can create money without limit, there is no need for taxation at all.
And, as I said, I haven't got anything of the money in my account from the SCUE, so I guess I do not have a responsibility towards SCUE either, apart from you providing the website. That's where my problem lies. The MCS is the owner of the map, and has a different set up in being directly involved in who has what piece of land. The SCUE just created money, and the money got transferred. I don't have money that was created for me by the SCUE, it is money that already existed. It's a huge difference.
Besides, you still haven't answered my other point, namely that you could have done other things to make economic transactions more appealing to nations.
All of your money originated with SCUE, and it exists within SCUE. Every single country which in which you have, or have had, an account, received their money from SCUE, and all of the money which you now hide away in Coria, was initially given by SCUE. Regardless of whether SCUE gave any of your countries money directly, or whether you transferred money to those countries yourselves, it is all SCUE money. By virtue of having membership, you are entitled to use the currency, but the moment you leave SCUE, you will lose that entitlement, and you will lose all claims to SCUE currency. If you truly believe that you have no responsibility to SCUE, then I encourage you to review your membership with the bank.
Still on that huh? I intend on posting actual legislation here pretty soon, if it makes you feel better. It seems people pretty much know where they stand on this issue, and we can now move into the process of formalizing things.... better yet this specific proposal could have been discussed before it was implemented, even with an effective date in the medium-term.
""YJD: Een Recwar is prima zolang Bijaro niet deelneemt."
Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
No, I don't feel any better, and your arrogance irks me. Perhaps you should re-read this thread: you unilaterally declared a tax without consulting anyone, there was a backlash with some support for the idea but a majority concluding this move was illegal. So when you say "formalise", do you mean "start again"?Duke Sinclair wrote:Still on that huh? I intend on posting actual legislation here pretty soon, if it makes you feel better. It seems people pretty much know where they stand on this issue, and we can now move into the process of formalizing things.
Formerly His Imperial Niftiness Yardistanislaus du Grifos, former Kaiser of Shireroth
Now just Vilhelm Benkern, Count of Mar Sara
Suzerain of Hawshire // Peil̊åkti an Ixraǔtn | Protector of the Safir // Xonuti Shawa 'allumi Sanilla'i'i | King of the Free State of Sanilla
Now just Vilhelm Benkern, Count of Mar Sara
Suzerain of Hawshire // Peil̊åkti an Ixraǔtn | Protector of the Safir // Xonuti Shawa 'allumi Sanilla'i'i | King of the Free State of Sanilla
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Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
The tone of my most recent post was uncalled for, you're right. It wasn't very nice, and I apologize. Indeed, I may also have mis-read the tone of your very first post as well. That said, no, I do not mean "start over." This entire conversation has been valuable for discerning where the community stands in regards to the bank and its ability to tax members, and now we can begin discussing, and agreeing upon specific policy measures without needing to rehash the disagreements we've had here. Like I've said, albeit perhaps not in such clear terms, I am willing to forego this specific decree, if it means that the community as a whole is able to agree on legislation along similar lines.
""YJD: Een Recwar is prima zolang Bijaro niet deelneemt."
Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
Apparently I'm not the only dick around here. I oppose this move because there is no basis for it in the treaty, and it is a blatant overreach.Duke Sinclair wrote:How ironic that you would regard SCUE as a failure, while opposing a more top-down approach regarding its administration.Malliki wrote:I think we can declare the SCUE to be a monumental failure. Given the time and energy put into it and the number of people and nations that have joined, the level of activity in it is discouraging. Perhaps the idea of a "real" economy should be abandoned?
If you have so little confidence, you should feel no obligation to retain your membership. The bank will not be dismantled because some of its more useless members feel discouraged.
Re: Notice: Trade Equality Act
With that reasoning, a road in the middle of nowhere is a resounding success for the transportation of people and goods, even if no one uses it due to lack of people and goods.Lord Erion wrote:The SCUE is, on the contrary, a resounding success, as a system to facilitate the management of micronational economies. It is the micronational economies that have failed due to a general lack of fundamental and structural supply and demand for the system to manage.Malliki wrote:I think we can declare the SCUE to be a monumental failure. Given the time and energy put into it and the number of people and nations that have joined, the level of activity in it is discouraging. Perhaps the idea of a "real" economy should be abandoned?