[Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
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Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
Nope. This mission is aimed against pirates, and it surrpises me that Jingdao seems to consider itself a target of this very noble mission. It is actually is in Jingdao's interest to fight piracy, given the fact it has a very long coastline and several overseas territories.Jezza Rasmus wrote:So you acknowledge that this mission only intends to raid Jingdaoese vessels, as an excuse to start a war with Jingdao?
Harald Freyjugjöf the Generous Giver of the House of the Descendants of Freyja
High King of Stormark
Sovereign Lord on all Continents
High King of Stormark
Sovereign Lord on all Continents
Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
Because of our long support lines to our overseas territories we have extreme difficulties with the unlimited power to "carry out inquiries, surveillances, interceptions, examinations, inspections, interdictions, searches, seizures, and arrests to prevent, detect, and suppress" using "all the necessary force as well as take all the measures that they may deem necessary or expedient to succesfully carry out this mission MTO Mission" [sic].
This mission is about giving a carte blanche to certain nations to police the high seas. It is not about fighting the limited threat of piracy, otherwise it would have been designed to be more proportionate. It is for this reason that all our trade ships will be escorted on the high seas by Jingdaoese warships and that any attempt to hinder them will be considered a declaration of war. We do of course not consider it likely that the MTO would even feel the need to investigate our convoys if this is just about fighting piracy, but we are ready for the case it is more. This measure also makes pirate attacks on our trading fleet unlikely.
This mission is about giving a carte blanche to certain nations to police the high seas. It is not about fighting the limited threat of piracy, otherwise it would have been designed to be more proportionate. It is for this reason that all our trade ships will be escorted on the high seas by Jingdaoese warships and that any attempt to hinder them will be considered a declaration of war. We do of course not consider it likely that the MTO would even feel the need to investigate our convoys if this is just about fighting piracy, but we are ready for the case it is more. This measure also makes pirate attacks on our trading fleet unlikely.
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Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
A robust and flexible and mandate is very much necessary, otherwise the mission is doomed to be an abject failure.Jezza Rasmus wrote:Because of our long support lines to our overseas territories we have extreme difficulties with the unlimited power to "carry out inquiries, surveillances, interceptions, examinations, inspections, interdictions, searches, seizures, and arrests to prevent, detect, and suppress" using "all the necessary force as well as take all the measures that they may deem necessary or expedient to succesfully carry out this mission MTO Mission" [sic].
This is the intermicran community coming together to tackle a problem through the MTO. And Jingdao is as free to sign up too.Jezza Rasmus wrote:This mission is about giving a carte blanche to certain nations to police the high seas.
A quick glance at the MCS Map learns that Micras is basically a pirate paradise, due to the enormous size of The Green.Jezza Rasmus wrote:It is not about fighting the limited threat of piracy, otherwise it would have been designed to be more proportionate.
This MTO Mission is aimed at pirates. 'Nuff said.Jezza Rasmus wrote:It is for this reason that all our trade ships will be escorted on the high seas by Jingdaoese warships and that any attempt to hinder them will be considered a declaration of war. We do of course not consider it likely that the MTO would even feel the need to investigate our convoys if this is just about fighting piracy, but we are ready for the case it is more. This measure also makes pirate attacks on our trading fleet unlikely.
Harald Freyjugjöf the Generous Giver of the House of the Descendants of Freyja
High King of Stormark
Sovereign Lord on all Continents
High King of Stormark
Sovereign Lord on all Continents
Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
Mr. Speaker,
It is evident that international action is needed to address the issue of piracy in the high seas of our world. With the vast and all-encompassing emptiness of the Green, we have coastlines and islands that can prove to be fertile ground for pirates to attack our shipping and potentially disrupt our economies. The goal of this mission is very clear, and I would like to reassure our Jingdaoese counterparts that Alexandria will not support actions that are well beyond the understood scope and purpose of the mission, in fact, Alexandria asks the Holy Empire to join this mission and indeed join Alexandria in ensuring that this mission does not exceed its scope and purpose. I believe it was recently that the same representatives of the Holy Empire said to Alexandria during the MCS appointments that in order to get a batter candidate or a better result from something, one must become involved. I ask our friends at the Holy Empire to join this mission.
We must also avoid the rhetoric of war, the rhetoric of division, the rhetoric of pain - we must seek instead to pursue all paths that build greater understanding and friendship among all the peoples of Micras. Threatening one another with nuclear weapons establishes an incredibly concerning precedent for the conduction of diplomacy in Micras. (OOC: There's also the additional concern that it is godmodding. What happens if you blow up the world 50 times over? Do we go back to square one? Or is everything everyone else has built destroyed and nonexistent? What happens? Does Craitman have to wipe the map and start all over again? I mean, really, what happens. Throwing around the threat of nuclear weapons in Micras is plain silly.) I hope that we can use this opportunity to unite and secure the high seas.
Thank you,
It is evident that international action is needed to address the issue of piracy in the high seas of our world. With the vast and all-encompassing emptiness of the Green, we have coastlines and islands that can prove to be fertile ground for pirates to attack our shipping and potentially disrupt our economies. The goal of this mission is very clear, and I would like to reassure our Jingdaoese counterparts that Alexandria will not support actions that are well beyond the understood scope and purpose of the mission, in fact, Alexandria asks the Holy Empire to join this mission and indeed join Alexandria in ensuring that this mission does not exceed its scope and purpose. I believe it was recently that the same representatives of the Holy Empire said to Alexandria during the MCS appointments that in order to get a batter candidate or a better result from something, one must become involved. I ask our friends at the Holy Empire to join this mission.
We must also avoid the rhetoric of war, the rhetoric of division, the rhetoric of pain - we must seek instead to pursue all paths that build greater understanding and friendship among all the peoples of Micras. Threatening one another with nuclear weapons establishes an incredibly concerning precedent for the conduction of diplomacy in Micras. (OOC: There's also the additional concern that it is godmodding. What happens if you blow up the world 50 times over? Do we go back to square one? Or is everything everyone else has built destroyed and nonexistent? What happens? Does Craitman have to wipe the map and start all over again? I mean, really, what happens. Throwing around the threat of nuclear weapons in Micras is plain silly.) I hope that we can use this opportunity to unite and secure the high seas.
Thank you,
EDGARD
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Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
OOC: I'm not sure it is godmoding. If I would say "We have wiped out all other nations and only Jingdao remains", yes, that would be godmoding. However, in this situation we are just detailing under what conditions we would participate. Any MTO nation that wishes to play recwar over piracy will lose a few citizens to a nuclear attack (ranging from dirty bombs to wiped out cities, we can discuss that in private), while we lose a few ships, if you don't like those conditions, don't search our vessels. The MTO does not determine the rules of micronations, that is up to the micronations themselves. Unlike the nations that start this mission, Jingdao has never tried to determine the rules for others. Our territories and ships, our rules, has always been our game. This really is the Straits scenario all over where Alexandria wanted to make rules for Jingdaoese waters only now it seems to be Stormark that tries to make rules for Jingdaoese ships.
Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
The Holy Grande Empire will not participate because we believe in national sovereignty, not only our own but also that of other nations. We believe this to be the basis for international law. When a decision is taken by the MTO, it has not necessarily been taken with unanimous consent. Ships will be searched without permission from the nation that ship belongs to. Where does the right come from that the MTO claims? Certainly not because it represents a majority of the nations, only a minority is even associated with the MTO and the organisation is guided by a few nations. The limitations for the mission have been made very vague, much more vague than was necessary. What you are proposing here is not an altruistic mission to bring peace to the seas. Instead Harald seems to like the idea of not calling himself monarch on all continents, but also over the high sea. We will not be led to the slaughter like a lamb. We will not be silent, like a sheep before its shearers.Edgard wrote:I ask our friends at the Holy Empire to join this mission.
Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
After a lengthy discussion in our National Security Council, I have decided to change our vote to Nay. The proposed mission has too broad powers and is not a bilateral mission. Instead it confers broad powers upon a few individuals to carry out searches and seizures without due process.
Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
[[OOC: I know this comment is out of order as I don't represent any nation, but I'd just like to point out that nuclear weapons may have figured in Orbats and strategic defence strategies over the years, but they haven't been allowed in RecWars or actively used. This is for the obvious reason that the damage they cause is so irreparable that they mean that populations would change, city maps and even national infrastructure would change, and of course national cultures would be changed. They should only be used consensually - or, as Babkha did, against yourself. Antica also destroyed itself with an AI and I think nukes may have played a part. Nothing wrong with Jingdao sabre-wrattling about nukes, but the stance that we will nuke you if you search our vessels is ridiculous. North Korea hasn't even done that IRL. Would they? I don't know, but clearly the constraints of this voluntary hobby mean that some common sense is required on all sides.]]
Formerly His Imperial Niftiness Yardistanislaus du Grifos, former Kaiser of Shireroth
Now just Vilhelm Benkern, Count of Mar Sara
Suzerain of Hawshire // Peil̊åkti an Ixraǔtn | Protector of the Safir // Xonuti Shawa 'allumi Sanilla'i'i | King of the Free State of Sanilla
Now just Vilhelm Benkern, Count of Mar Sara
Suzerain of Hawshire // Peil̊åkti an Ixraǔtn | Protector of the Safir // Xonuti Shawa 'allumi Sanilla'i'i | King of the Free State of Sanilla
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Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
Hear, hear!!Benkern wrote:[[OOC: I know this comment is out of order as I don't represent any nation, but I'd just like to point out that nuclear weapons may have figured in Orbats and strategic defence strategies over the years, but they haven't been allowed in RecWars or actively used. This is for the obvious reason that the damage they cause is so irreparable that they mean that populations would change, city maps and even national infrastructure would change, and of course national cultures would be changed. They should only be used consensually - or, as Babkha did, against yourself. Antica also destroyed itself with an AI and I think nukes may have played a part. Nothing wrong with Jingdao sabre-wrattling about nukes, but the stance that we will nuke you if you search our vessels is ridiculous. North Korea hasn't even done that IRL. Would they? I don't know, but clearly the constraints of this voluntary hobby mean that some common sense is required on all sides.]]
Harald Freyjugjöf the Generous Giver of the House of the Descendants of Freyja
High King of Stormark
Sovereign Lord on all Continents
High King of Stormark
Sovereign Lord on all Continents
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Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
Mr. Secretary-General,
This Resolution is hereby withdrawn.
This Resolution is hereby withdrawn.
Harald Freyjugjöf the Generous Giver of the House of the Descendants of Freyja
High King of Stormark
Sovereign Lord on all Continents
High King of Stormark
Sovereign Lord on all Continents
Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
OOC: If you don't like it, don't start a recwar with us... that simple. I haven't asked to subscribe to the idea of a Micras police force, I think it's (even?) more ridiculous than the idea of Jingdao using extreme violence...Benkern wrote:[[OOC: I know this comment is out of order as I don't represent any nation, but I'd just like to point out that nuclear weapons may have figured in Orbats and strategic defence strategies over the years, but they haven't been allowed in RecWars or actively used. This is for the obvious reason that the damage they cause is so irreparable that they mean that populations would change, city maps and even national infrastructure would change, and of course national cultures would be changed. They should only be used consensually - or, as Babkha did, against yourself. Antica also destroyed itself with an AI and I think nukes may have played a part. Nothing wrong with Jingdao sabre-wrattling about nukes, but the stance that we will nuke you if you search our vessels is ridiculous. North Korea hasn't even done that IRL. Would they? I don't know, but clearly the constraints of this voluntary hobby mean that some common sense is required on all sides.]]
Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
OOC: Well, point taken. I understand your point re: the rules of recwarring and I definitely agree 100% that every micronation itself should come up with its own rules. I never proposed that the MTO make rules over the use of nuclear weapons. Alexandria nor myself is trying to determine rules for anyone and no, this isn't the Straits scenario all over again. In that scenario, you guys were out to screw Alexandria over and whenever we reached a compromise you would move the goalposts. We're not trying to make any rules for anyone, but instead trying to come up in this instance with a community response against a problem that has the potential to affect ALL of us. I, for one, am interested in working with Jingdao and any and all nations that want to be included in efforts to secure international waters. But! I do see your point, and I understand it now. Thanks for clarifying.Jezza Rasmus wrote:OOC: I'm not sure it is godmoding. If I would say "We have wiped out all other nations and only Jingdao remains", yes, that would be godmoding. However, in this situation we are just detailing under what conditions we would participate. Any MTO nation that wishes to play recwar over piracy will lose a few citizens to a nuclear attack (ranging from dirty bombs to wiped out cities, we can discuss that in private), while we lose a few ships, if you don't like those conditions, don't search our vessels. The MTO does not determine the rules of micronations, that is up to the micronations themselves. Unlike the nations that start this mission, Jingdao has never tried to determine the rules for others. Our territories and ships, our rules, has always been our game. This really is the Straits scenario all over where Alexandria wanted to make rules for Jingdaoese waters only now it seems to be Stormark that tries to make rules for Jingdaoese ships.
EDGARD
Central Committee of Edgards
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Re: [Resolution] Festival de las Armadas
This.High King Harald wrote:Hear, hear!!Benkern wrote:[[OOC: I know this comment is out of order as I don't represent any nation, but I'd just like to point out that nuclear weapons may have figured in Orbats and strategic defence strategies over the years, but they haven't been allowed in RecWars or actively used. This is for the obvious reason that the damage they cause is so irreparable that they mean that populations would change, city maps and even national infrastructure would change, and of course national cultures would be changed. They should only be used consensually - or, as Babkha did, against yourself. Antica also destroyed itself with an AI and I think nukes may have played a part. Nothing wrong with Jingdao sabre-wrattling about nukes, but the stance that we will nuke you if you search our vessels is ridiculous. North Korea hasn't even done that IRL. Would they? I don't know, but clearly the constraints of this voluntary hobby mean that some common sense is required on all sides.]]
EDGARD
Central Committee of Edgards
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