Andreas and Monty going on about ICBMS et al
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Just putting this here for me and Monty to chat in a separate thread, so it doesn't ruin the war ....
a. Is it 16 in total, one every 30 minutes.
b. Do they all travel at the same speed? (not an actual question, but even a non-military mind like me sees that we have a problem the FIRST missile, but after that we have half an hour warning each time ...)
c. What sort of area do they attack?
d. Any particular targets or city in general?
I'm not going to let you give us some horrible 24 hour thing, but you are going to have to actual explain what these missiles do to a non-military person like me so I know how to give accurate damage.
A glance at wiki leaves me quite confused too ... you mentioned nothing about nuclear, which it says you need in it ... (Spangle, does NB have Nuclear?) Also, didn't you say you were launching them from the destroyer? This says land based (as I thought) or subs at best ... but any sub that could launch huge missiles would be costed a LOT higher than a normal sub, surely, and that wasn't obvious in your orbat ....
And on that note, Monty, what on earth is the points for your Orbat? I hate when people don't put in points ... I start trying to add it up and every way I get easily more than the 5 you should have ...
You still didn't answer my actual question - things likeMonty wrote:Andreas, these are ICBMs. They go up into space, then rocket back down without propulsion. Look them up on the internet and you'll see how hard it is to detect them with radar and you'll see how quickly they work. These were the things designed to deliver nukes to Western Europe and the US. Unless your entire city can be evacuated in 8-15 minutes, there'll be problems
a. Is it 16 in total, one every 30 minutes.
b. Do they all travel at the same speed? (not an actual question, but even a non-military mind like me sees that we have a problem the FIRST missile, but after that we have half an hour warning each time ...)
c. What sort of area do they attack?
d. Any particular targets or city in general?
I'm not going to let you give us some horrible 24 hour thing, but you are going to have to actual explain what these missiles do to a non-military person like me so I know how to give accurate damage.
A glance at wiki leaves me quite confused too ... you mentioned nothing about nuclear, which it says you need in it ... (Spangle, does NB have Nuclear?) Also, didn't you say you were launching them from the destroyer? This says land based (as I thought) or subs at best ... but any sub that could launch huge missiles would be costed a LOT higher than a normal sub, surely, and that wasn't obvious in your orbat ....
And on that note, Monty, what on earth is the points for your Orbat? I hate when people don't put in points ... I start trying to add it up and every way I get easily more than the 5 you should have ...
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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No (apart from the Orbat) just it's likely to be a long discussion, so if I could have approval for a separate thread ...
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
- Guido Zambelis
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OK, cheers! I'll bring up the Orbat again if I need to ...
So, Monty, I want answers ...
So, Monty, I want answers ...
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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ICBM normaly have nuclear warheads but they are propelled like a rocket so no they dont require nuclear capability.
however they do require extremely advanced quidance systems. usually involving gps triangulation.
and yeah im now wondering this are all 25 of the subs .2 points? becaues the SSGNs should be atleast as much if not more than a GMD as they carry many more missiles. and i would have though anything with ICBM capability would be obsurdy expensive at least wouldn't an ICBM capable sub be worth more than an attack sub?
however they do require extremely advanced quidance systems. usually involving gps triangulation.
and yeah im now wondering this are all 25 of the subs .2 points? becaues the SSGNs should be atleast as much if not more than a GMD as they carry many more missiles. and i would have though anything with ICBM capability would be obsurdy expensive at least wouldn't an ICBM capable sub be worth more than an attack sub?
- Lord_Montague
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I went with what I was told; .2 for a nuclear submarine. My subs are all nuclear.
1) 16 per city, 1 being fired every half hour.
2) They travel upwards into teh upper atmosphere, before allowing gravity to do the work on the way down. Think the V2 from WWII but bigger, faster and far more destructive.
3) They were designed to hit so that 1 MIRV from 1 ICBM was for one city as they originally had nuclear warheads. However, they can be modified for strategic use with conventional arms and all the MIRVs can be targetted at the same city.
4) Aimed for the city in general.
1) 16 per city, 1 being fired every half hour.
2) They travel upwards into teh upper atmosphere, before allowing gravity to do the work on the way down. Think the V2 from WWII but bigger, faster and far more destructive.
3) They were designed to hit so that 1 MIRV from 1 ICBM was for one city as they originally had nuclear warheads. However, they can be modified for strategic use with conventional arms and all the MIRVs can be targetted at the same city.
4) Aimed for the city in general.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
That would be .2 for a Nuclear attack sub. Sub's that are capable of launching ICBM's are a lot more expensive to produce, and have a deeper crush depth, thus making them worth more.Lord_Montague wrote:I went with what I was told; .2 for a nuclear submarine. My subs are all nuclear.
King Lachlan
King of Novatainia
King of Novatainia
Sorongath wrote:Uhh guys... we should probably revive Enrique.
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KingJeremy wrote:I'm only a man Andreas, even with my godly looks
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Ok, so this is EXACTLY like Hiroshima ... well, I can handle that ... lucky our tunnels run deep, and the Soviets had bombs shelters to avoid nuclear, didn't they, so why not us ... I can deal with that.Lord_Montague wrote:I went with what I was told; .2 for a nuclear submarine. My subs are all nuclear.
1) 16 per city, 1 being fired every half hour.
2) They travel upwards into teh upper atmosphere, before allowing gravity to do the work on the way down. Think the V2 from WWII but bigger, faster and far more destructive.
3) They were designed to hit so that 1 MIRV from 1 ICBM was for one city as they originally had nuclear warheads. However, they can be modified for strategic use with conventional arms and all the MIRVs can be targetted at the same city.
4) Aimed for the city in general.
But I am going to have question the orbat of those subs, if you don't mind ...
Sorry guido, this is a JP after all ...
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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- Lord_Montague
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Well, since the judges have ignored the complaint in the JP thread because of too many other ones, I'll continue it here.
Then, Monty, what is to stop the MI bringing in another commander with 25 Nuclear subs, deployed, say, in groups of five at different locations around Micras, and then used to launch 16 missiles each at various targets ... say each and every opposing army (if they can take out a city, an army isn't hard) and at least one on every opposing city ... what's to stop us from that apart from, say, a sense of fairness and moral decency?
Oh, some of the armies have anti missile stuff and might be able to stop it. But only some - many would just get destroyed. And the cities? Well, there'd be enough missiles there for one on every city in the Riponian Mainland (all undefended), Stomark everywhere (all undefended), each NB city (apart from Stoke and possibly the big chunk, I think they're largely undefended), each Alexandrian city (we've been through this, apart from Geneva it's undefended), and even Fort Jericho. And if one is designed to take out a city, one can take out the majority of enemy armies no sweat.
I can see it all now ... it can be someone who's dissatisfied with the war, say its an extremist presence in our nation. The government can deny any ordering of the attack, neither affirming nor denying it - better yet, we can say it's nasty, but, oh well, it's happened, there goes half your army And, Jeremy, it even has clear Real World connotations - remember the Cold War, all that waiting to launch missiles at eachother? Well, everyone will remember NB launched the first strike. MI still might not win, but half of Micras would burn with us ... am I painting a clear enough picture of how ludicrous it is that a standard submarine can launch 16 ICBM's?
Of course, I would never order such an attack, but you never know what other people might do. Besides, Monty, yes, it may say 0.2 for a Nuclear Sub, but you also have to state any exceptional capabilities BEFORE the war starts. Where in the Orbat did it say "Oh yes, and they can cause wanton destruction across the continents quite easily"? Where the judges aware of that? And if they were, then the cause described above is not only perfectly legal, but seems quite sensible. After all, nobody seemed fussed when a mere 100 000 citizens were destroyed - why not half of Micras?
However, Monty, because I know how important butchering innocent and undefended civilians is to your character, and doing it from another continent so they can't possibly fight back must be a dream come true, I'm willing to let each sub have 1 ICBM - so that we can get our Hiroshima over with and this doesn't happen again - but only on the condition you tell me which ship/sub you are personally on, and where it currently is.
Then, Monty, what is to stop the MI bringing in another commander with 25 Nuclear subs, deployed, say, in groups of five at different locations around Micras, and then used to launch 16 missiles each at various targets ... say each and every opposing army (if they can take out a city, an army isn't hard) and at least one on every opposing city ... what's to stop us from that apart from, say, a sense of fairness and moral decency?
Oh, some of the armies have anti missile stuff and might be able to stop it. But only some - many would just get destroyed. And the cities? Well, there'd be enough missiles there for one on every city in the Riponian Mainland (all undefended), Stomark everywhere (all undefended), each NB city (apart from Stoke and possibly the big chunk, I think they're largely undefended), each Alexandrian city (we've been through this, apart from Geneva it's undefended), and even Fort Jericho. And if one is designed to take out a city, one can take out the majority of enemy armies no sweat.
I can see it all now ... it can be someone who's dissatisfied with the war, say its an extremist presence in our nation. The government can deny any ordering of the attack, neither affirming nor denying it - better yet, we can say it's nasty, but, oh well, it's happened, there goes half your army And, Jeremy, it even has clear Real World connotations - remember the Cold War, all that waiting to launch missiles at eachother? Well, everyone will remember NB launched the first strike. MI still might not win, but half of Micras would burn with us ... am I painting a clear enough picture of how ludicrous it is that a standard submarine can launch 16 ICBM's?
Of course, I would never order such an attack, but you never know what other people might do. Besides, Monty, yes, it may say 0.2 for a Nuclear Sub, but you also have to state any exceptional capabilities BEFORE the war starts. Where in the Orbat did it say "Oh yes, and they can cause wanton destruction across the continents quite easily"? Where the judges aware of that? And if they were, then the cause described above is not only perfectly legal, but seems quite sensible. After all, nobody seemed fussed when a mere 100 000 citizens were destroyed - why not half of Micras?
However, Monty, because I know how important butchering innocent and undefended civilians is to your character, and doing it from another continent so they can't possibly fight back must be a dream come true, I'm willing to let each sub have 1 ICBM - so that we can get our Hiroshima over with and this doesn't happen again - but only on the condition you tell me which ship/sub you are personally on, and where it currently is.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
- Guido Zambelis
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Exactly my point Guido, but that doesn't address the issue of the subs having exceptional and totally undercosted capabilities.
EDIT: After checking Wiki (and I do object to having to check wikipedia for each and every single attack ) it is indeed true that Vanguard class submarines launch ICBMs, and so technically Montague did declare that capability, though by not posting any descriptions or anything of units, wisely assumed nobody would check on them till too late. However, the point still stands that a unit capable of that should cost more. Not to mention that fact there are only 4 in existence (so clearly they are very rare and dear) and NB has five. That's not to say that they can't waste all their money on subs if they want, but they do have to fairly declare the huge cost.
Guido, then, if Monty's attack is "not" playing with missiles, and the one I described, using same units and costs is, then could we still launch the same number of missiles as monty (32) and probably still have one on every enemy city?
EDIT: After checking Wiki (and I do object to having to check wikipedia for each and every single attack ) it is indeed true that Vanguard class submarines launch ICBMs, and so technically Montague did declare that capability, though by not posting any descriptions or anything of units, wisely assumed nobody would check on them till too late. However, the point still stands that a unit capable of that should cost more. Not to mention that fact there are only 4 in existence (so clearly they are very rare and dear) and NB has five. That's not to say that they can't waste all their money on subs if they want, but they do have to fairly declare the huge cost.
Guido, then, if Monty's attack is "not" playing with missiles, and the one I described, using same units and costs is, then could we still launch the same number of missiles as monty (32) and probably still have one on every enemy city?
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
- Lord_Montague
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There are 4 Vanguard Class submarines which carry the UK's nuclear armament.
There are 18 Ohio Class submarines, which the US uses to house part of its nuclear armament. Ohios are larger than Vanguard Class vessels. If the US can afford to build so many, Vanguards aren't that precious in comparison.
However, to be fair, I'm willing to reduce the number of SSBNs in my fleet to 2.
I did nto need to declare exceptional capabilities, Andreas, because there is nothing exceptional about a SSBN
There are 18 Ohio Class submarines, which the US uses to house part of its nuclear armament. Ohios are larger than Vanguard Class vessels. If the US can afford to build so many, Vanguards aren't that precious in comparison.
However, to be fair, I'm willing to reduce the number of SSBNs in my fleet to 2.
I did nto need to declare exceptional capabilities, Andreas, because there is nothing exceptional about a SSBN
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.