The Decline and Fall ....
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- Scott Alexander
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
Wait...nations with made-up languages can't be realistic? That's...possibly the weirdest comment I've ever heard on this board. Does everyone have to speak English or it doesn't count?A doubt a nation with a made up language and one with nuclear powered paddlesteamers which fire surface to surface missiles alongside forces which use muskets fall under the catagory of "Realistic" or, as you previously said before you changed your post, "being based on real life countries.
...and what's with these countries that use made-up geography! That's COMPLETELY unrealistic! Some of them even invent whole cities and provinces! And I could swear I spotted one with its own law code and system of government completely different than the ones used in the real world just the other day!
Scott Alexander | Autokrator of Archipelago (What is Archipelago?)
Illustrious Founder of the MCS, and sometime Special Cartographer
Illustrious Founder of the MCS, and sometime Special Cartographer
- dr-spangle
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
If by this post you mean the sea depth and physical map will treat them as if they never flew, yes. it's clearAndreas the Wise wrote:Well we're not asking for it to be marked as flying on the map. And it's been stated twice that it is official MCS policy that the original Jasonian islands were flying, and so that should resolve all the implications for sea depth and the physical map. Done. Exactly what I asked for in the first place
It's been stated twice that it IS (notice, present tense, not past tense) official MCS policy that the original Jasonian islands were flying eh?
I have not seen Pete post this.
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
most micronations dont go through making up new languages, was my point. That isnt "based on the real world" such as andreas said (before editing the post)
- dr-spangle
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
Ok...
*exhales*
*breaks lungs*
*dies happily.*
unfortunately I haven't broken my lungs and died happily. I'm still here
my view on this:
we've basically fought down to the bone. the remaining argument that will settle it all is what is more important?
science and logic?
or
history and canon?
my argument is that we try and keep it somewhat realistic, therefore science and logic are rather necessary, because you all remember me saying Micras is flat, there was no explicit reference to micras being round before that, so my argument against history and canon would be that because I said micras was flat, no one disagreed and nothing said it was round before, Micras is now flat.
but let's be fair. I'm going to try and represent the other viewpoint fairly, I'm likely to fail because I'm trying to sum it up, the human brain tends towards bias and we're never really on the same page on any issue...
The other side of the argument is that Micras is, in the end, a fictional planet, therefore canon is important to keep it rolling (or turning? ) and sometimes science and logic can be sacrificed for this, and that since erik, scott and bill created the map they basically hold the cards on what is real and false because they decide the physics that applies.
I see merits of both arguments, I see bad points, I see where people could/would exploit them.
Unfortunately, as many point out to me, I find it hard to see past science so i'm instantly biased towards the science side of the argument, however, can we discount the fact that some people on the other side of the blade are biased towards the history/canon side of the argument...
And through all this, I feel it tends to boil down to: Which is better? Science or History? Which should be relied upon more?
Also, through all this Andreas seems to believe it boils down to "is the ocean off the coast of Negala more or less than 4miles deep?" and also, believing that I have "infinite intelligence" will not accept the answer "We don't know."
*exhales*
*breaks lungs*
*dies happily.*
unfortunately I haven't broken my lungs and died happily. I'm still here
my view on this:
we've basically fought down to the bone. the remaining argument that will settle it all is what is more important?
science and logic?
or
history and canon?
my argument is that we try and keep it somewhat realistic, therefore science and logic are rather necessary, because you all remember me saying Micras is flat, there was no explicit reference to micras being round before that, so my argument against history and canon would be that because I said micras was flat, no one disagreed and nothing said it was round before, Micras is now flat.
but let's be fair. I'm going to try and represent the other viewpoint fairly, I'm likely to fail because I'm trying to sum it up, the human brain tends towards bias and we're never really on the same page on any issue...
The other side of the argument is that Micras is, in the end, a fictional planet, therefore canon is important to keep it rolling (or turning? ) and sometimes science and logic can be sacrificed for this, and that since erik, scott and bill created the map they basically hold the cards on what is real and false because they decide the physics that applies.
I see merits of both arguments, I see bad points, I see where people could/would exploit them.
Unfortunately, as many point out to me, I find it hard to see past science so i'm instantly biased towards the science side of the argument, however, can we discount the fact that some people on the other side of the blade are biased towards the history/canon side of the argument...
And through all this, I feel it tends to boil down to: Which is better? Science or History? Which should be relied upon more?
Also, through all this Andreas seems to believe it boils down to "is the ocean off the coast of Negala more or less than 4miles deep?" and also, believing that I have "infinite intelligence" will not accept the answer "We don't know."
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
Policy or no. The fact remains, the MCS DID, past tense, recognize them as flying. Back we we cared more about representing how things were, then enforcing our own few of what a micronations should be.
I'm not saying recognize them now. But we did back then.
I'm not saying recognize them now. But we did back then.
Erik Metzler
Perennial Citizen of Shireroth
And Often the Kaiser...
- dr-spangle
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
Yes we did, see my post in nelagan thread:
The agreeable way would be to say:
Everyone can believe that the islands formed in a normal tectonic way, it's their right to believe such.
Nelagans can believe the islands flew to their position and float or are on the bottom or fly, it's their right to believe such.
The MCS rules say the maps can't be changed, so they won't, but this doesn't prevent you from making a map of the area showing them flying in a similar way to how Novatainia's maps show the whirlpool which is not marked on MCS maps.
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
That is also a suitable conclusion. It was when statements were made suggesting that the MCS would intervene that problems emerged. Now that has been resolved in the negative, the above is a most suitable conclusion.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
Making it a history / cannon is IMHO, forcing nations to accept something that is different to their culture.
What if in the future, a modern/futuristic nation (FutureNationA) was to claim on Jasonian lands (let's assume that Nelaga died for some reason) ? Let's further assume that they posses the technology to map the entire ocean floor, dig through the ocean floor etc.. etc.. They claim that their islands are entirely part of the natural lands of the planet. ie.. the islands show no sign of having technology (magic or otherwise) that would indicate these islands have the capability to fly..
Now lets say this futuristic nation died for some random reason. Another nation came up (RandomNationA), which also says that the islands are not flying (they may or may not posses such technology to identify whether the islands have the capability to fly or not). Lets say this nation dies as well.
Now, another nation comes up (FinalNationA) and makes a claim on these islands. They claim these islands are flying.... now how do you bring in the cannon? do you say that the two nations (FutureNationA and RandomNationA) were correct and that the islands are not flying? Or do you say they were wrong and the islands are flying ? If the latter, then we (MCS) should have told that to the two nations that these islands are flying, no matter what they claim. And in doing so, we are forcing these nations to accept a certain culture so to speak.
What if in the future, a modern/futuristic nation (FutureNationA) was to claim on Jasonian lands (let's assume that Nelaga died for some reason) ? Let's further assume that they posses the technology to map the entire ocean floor, dig through the ocean floor etc.. etc.. They claim that their islands are entirely part of the natural lands of the planet. ie.. the islands show no sign of having technology (magic or otherwise) that would indicate these islands have the capability to fly..
Now lets say this futuristic nation died for some random reason. Another nation came up (RandomNationA), which also says that the islands are not flying (they may or may not posses such technology to identify whether the islands have the capability to fly or not). Lets say this nation dies as well.
Now, another nation comes up (FinalNationA) and makes a claim on these islands. They claim these islands are flying.... now how do you bring in the cannon? do you say that the two nations (FutureNationA and RandomNationA) were correct and that the islands are not flying? Or do you say they were wrong and the islands are flying ? If the latter, then we (MCS) should have told that to the two nations that these islands are flying, no matter what they claim. And in doing so, we are forcing these nations to accept a certain culture so to speak.
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
Extreme, as has been said several times, the islands are not flying by virtue of being those islands. The islands are flying because of anti-gravity motors made from the Micron concept-box, and all that technology will be 'lost' when Nelaga falls, and I would hope no one is so arrogant as to claim that technology again without Harvey's permission. I know I got it.
The MCS' job is not to tell nation's the history of previous nations in their land, nor is it to tell them their culture. If the next nation ignores the island's rich history, so much for them. If the nation after that explores the history further, then it's the job of the nation after to explain the nation before it, not the MCS.
The main history in this argument was meta-history from back when the MCS started. I say meta-history because it was history that transcended an individual nation and was marked on the map. History of the land itself back when that history was accepted by all participant nations and all history was authoritative because they were all the first nation on their lands. These days the MCS doesn't worry about that and Apollo is only remembered by those who were there or who played Control of Destiny, mainly. But just because you don't accept Apollo (as an example, not saying you do) shouldn't mean that you can deny my acceptance of Apollo history. Novatainia and NB then disputed about that meta-history and whether they recognised it or not. But the ultimate result was that neither could enforce their interpretation on the other - it was the nation who holds the land currently who gets the say about which histories they recognise or don't. Remember, micronational time is crazy-fluid. Shireroth's progressing in ASC and Toketi and Novatainia are closer to one day = one day, and we just ignore those discrepancies, because if you don't, you go mad. I tried and almost went mad.
(if you didn't notice, the 'floating' bit was rescinded and resolved by saying the ocean wasn't that deep after all, and hence the islands are rooted. As for the islands original location and moving, well, Nelaga accepts Jasonia history and that's good enough for me )
The MCS' job is not to tell nation's the history of previous nations in their land, nor is it to tell them their culture. If the next nation ignores the island's rich history, so much for them. If the nation after that explores the history further, then it's the job of the nation after to explain the nation before it, not the MCS.
The main history in this argument was meta-history from back when the MCS started. I say meta-history because it was history that transcended an individual nation and was marked on the map. History of the land itself back when that history was accepted by all participant nations and all history was authoritative because they were all the first nation on their lands. These days the MCS doesn't worry about that and Apollo is only remembered by those who were there or who played Control of Destiny, mainly. But just because you don't accept Apollo (as an example, not saying you do) shouldn't mean that you can deny my acceptance of Apollo history. Novatainia and NB then disputed about that meta-history and whether they recognised it or not. But the ultimate result was that neither could enforce their interpretation on the other - it was the nation who holds the land currently who gets the say about which histories they recognise or don't. Remember, micronational time is crazy-fluid. Shireroth's progressing in ASC and Toketi and Novatainia are closer to one day = one day, and we just ignore those discrepancies, because if you don't, you go mad. I tried and almost went mad.
(if you didn't notice, the 'floating' bit was rescinded and resolved by saying the ocean wasn't that deep after all, and hence the islands are rooted. As for the islands original location and moving, well, Nelaga accepts Jasonia history and that's good enough for me )
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
Re: The Decline and Fall ....
I believe the excuse I used in the past was to say that all past presence of the islands having flying capabilities were destroyed after years of disuse. That noone ever tried to resurrect that idea is simply coincidence.
I think the main argument here, on behalf of the MCS anyways, is that making them fly again infers that you're giving something is immobile a mobile status. The islands can fly. Fine. But they can't move. End of story.
And that's how it should be.
When I founded Yyldrnis I wanted to have a floating island. So I picked a small island off the northeast coast of Benacia and stated that it was "floating". But to maintain the effect that it was otherwise immobile, I also stated that giant chains held the island in place. Thus the story was presented so as to satisfy both sides. There's no reason both sides can't bend a little to make a workable compromise like the above - e.g. Gravimetric engines are only functional in stasis but lack enough power to allow motility.
I think the main argument here, on behalf of the MCS anyways, is that making them fly again infers that you're giving something is immobile a mobile status. The islands can fly. Fine. But they can't move. End of story.
And that's how it should be.
When I founded Yyldrnis I wanted to have a floating island. So I picked a small island off the northeast coast of Benacia and stated that it was "floating". But to maintain the effect that it was otherwise immobile, I also stated that giant chains held the island in place. Thus the story was presented so as to satisfy both sides. There's no reason both sides can't bend a little to make a workable compromise like the above - e.g. Gravimetric engines are only functional in stasis but lack enough power to allow motility.
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
Andreas, I agree with what you are saying. My point is to know if MCS is going to force nations or not. And I suppose that question is now answered that its not going to. Everything else is irrelevant.
- nick112147
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
when phpbb site is back up, I'll look into getting strikethrough
I know this is a little off-topic but you can get strikethrough by just adding a new BBCode.
BBCode:[strike]{TEXT}[/strike]
HTML:<strike>{TEXT}</strike>
I already have it on my forums. You can make the BBCodes do anything you want within the bounds of HTML at this point. The announcement on my forums is done with a special BBCode that uses tables, so the image is always on the left and the text is always on the right, properly aligned.
~The great and powerful Electric Wizard of Oz
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
All praise Magnus Thorsen for working out the HTML to get the inquisition on the side and not the whole line!
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
- dr-spangle
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
Or people who look at the bottom of the board and see the apollo foundation still exists, or those who worked for it for a while I worked for it but never really played CoDAndreas wrote: These days the MCS doesn't worry about that and Apollo is only remembered by those who were there or who played Control of Destiny, mainly.
or, if you're outside Nelaga, they can be believed to be normal islandsAndreas wrote:(if you didn't notice, the 'floating' bit was rescinded and resolved by saying the ocean wasn't that deep after all, and hence the islands are rooted. As for the islands original location and moving, well, Nelaga accepts Jasonia history and that's good enough for me )
and bleh, I doubt <strike> is valid HTML, proper W3C HTML... it'll be some thing that someone like microsoft added and was against the rules no doubt..
- nick112147
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Re: The Decline and Fall ....
Appearently it became obselete in HTML 4.01, but it is still supported in all major browsers. But it was W3C HTML, once upon a time.
<del> </del> is now used and should pass the strictness test.
<del> </del> is now used and should pass the strictness test.
~The great and powerful Electric Wizard of Oz