Council's new look
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Re: Council's new look
The identity of the author will probably make the following observation about as welcome as a pork pie in Jerusalem, but nobody seems to have noted that influence on the MCS Council (and indeed anywhere in micronations) is a product of both numeric representation AND activity levels. A minority can quite easily come to dominate if its voice is heard more frequently. For an example of this process in action in the real world, look at the correlation of the multimedia explosion of the last 20 years with the steady decline in centrism of all political colours, and a gradual popular migration to extremes of ideology previously considered the preserve of diehard minorities. It is easy to imbue the opinion of the few with a power indistingiushable from objective reality if you put the word about enough, and I suspect this phenomenon - or more specifically the potential for it to be applied to nefarious ends - is at the root of the objections raised here.
The most obvious solution would be for the non-Bastionado members to step up their own activity or, if they are unable, to appoint replacements who can. Otherwise you are going to have to accept that the most dedicated chatterers will, slowly and inevitably, remould the place in their own image - even if it isn't their intention. It's just the nature of the micronational game, as this old man has found to his cost many a time.
On the plus side, you don't have an MCS IRC channel so nobody's going to wake up and discover some kind of flash coup has turned Micras into Planet Cabbage overnight. You should probably chill a little (yes, I'm aware of the irony) and lay off the parliamentary finger-waving etc.
The most obvious solution would be for the non-Bastionado members to step up their own activity or, if they are unable, to appoint replacements who can. Otherwise you are going to have to accept that the most dedicated chatterers will, slowly and inevitably, remould the place in their own image - even if it isn't their intention. It's just the nature of the micronational game, as this old man has found to his cost many a time.
On the plus side, you don't have an MCS IRC channel so nobody's going to wake up and discover some kind of flash coup has turned Micras into Planet Cabbage overnight. You should probably chill a little (yes, I'm aware of the irony) and lay off the parliamentary finger-waving etc.
Re: Council's new look
To Jack, I am glad your recognise that to be the case. I hope there is no ill-will. I have invited the concerned citizens to make their cases so that this be cleared up properly. I do not wish to comment further, as I have given my reasoning.
I certainly welcome Yastreb's comments too. I have been very busy in recent months because of work, so I've not been able to represent Hamland abroad. We do, however, have strong ties with Alexandria and Stormark and I have always identified with them as similar to ourselves. I tried to make clear that I wish for Councillors to take it as part of their responsibility to make themselves present in the wider community and gain our support. You are correct that we should be more active internationally, and this is something I am trying to address presently in Hamland.
Hamland is a bigger community than just me now, so I can't speak for all any more. That's why I invite the concerned members to try and discuss the matter here and solve the problem for the future.
I certainly welcome Yastreb's comments too. I have been very busy in recent months because of work, so I've not been able to represent Hamland abroad. We do, however, have strong ties with Alexandria and Stormark and I have always identified with them as similar to ourselves. I tried to make clear that I wish for Councillors to take it as part of their responsibility to make themselves present in the wider community and gain our support. You are correct that we should be more active internationally, and this is something I am trying to address presently in Hamland.
Hamland is a bigger community than just me now, so I can't speak for all any more. That's why I invite the concerned members to try and discuss the matter here and solve the problem for the future.
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Re: Council's new look
Yastreb, it's about quality as much as quantity. Even so, all of the non-Bastion entities
combined would have more activity than Bastion.
combined would have more activity than Bastion.
Re: Council's new look
I was under the impression that anyone can voice their opposition any time on the appointments, I didn't know the MCS suddenly turned into Cabbageland.Jezza Rasmus wrote:We have over a month of voting now, how long can it last at most?
Indeed. I don't seek to stir up trouble, I have however tried to voice dissenting opinions of which there are. Obviously I haven't launched a massive campaign and I understand as Craitman said that it would take way more countries to overturn the decision. I was under the impression that whomever would be opposed to the appointments would be able to voice their concerns, which I find legitimate and need to be voiced. I was not under the impression that individual member states could not voice their opinions! That's the gist I am starting to get here from some of the Council members.Lewis wrote:One would still hope to have this dissatisfaction taken into account. It is not normal for countries to oppose these decisions on such a scale. Not engaging with, or even dismissing, these viewpoints would do nothing but agitate the situation.
I am only speaking for myself - yes, I am not a fan of you. But this is not the reason why I am opposing your appointment. Soon after the appointment you decide to up and leave for a seemingly undetermined period of time. Two, I feel that the weakness of your word when it comes to micronational commitments should be brought up as a concern here. Also, many of us in Alexandria, not just me, have serious concerns with two people getting appointed to the Council that have, themselves, their own grudges or bad opinions of Alexandria, Hamland and Stormark. A lof of us, especially me, feel that neither one of you would serve the Council well and would seriously damage its impartiality severely. I can live with Rasmus, if there is someone like the other candidate that lost to Jack, Lady Sigifrida, on the Council to balance that out. These two appointments have inherent anti-Hammish/Storsih/Alexandrian biases. Given how in the past certain policies were not applied consistently, I am sincerely afraid that you and Rasmus would use your influence and position in the Council to harm other nations and instead advance your own interests. Not to mention I feel it throws the balance of Bastion/Non-Bastion nations off in a community where many feel that all there is to Micras is Bastion. My interest is to make sure the MCS stays as an impartial, communal organization. Otherwise, we will have to seriously rethink our commitments to the MCS map, as the Imperial Assembly in Alexandria has voted to approve.Jack wrote:It's not normal that the apparent personal dislike of me by two member of the community (Opeyne Time in Hamland and Edgard, in multiple countries) has proven to be such a large influence on this entire proces.
Also, I should mention - only two nations have voiced their objections. Two. Hardly a mass of people or a "large influence". Hilarious you'd play the victim card.
Kras, you know I love you - but like Giles said, non-Bastion nations collectively or not are several times more active than each Bastion nation, collectively or not. So... no, I don't see eye to eye with you on that. We're plenty active. Alexandria's hit a bit of a lull, but we're not the only ones that are outside Bastion and have strong activity levels.Yastreb wrote:The identity of the author will probably make the following observation about as welcome as a pork pie in Jerusalem, but nobody seems to have noted that influence on the MCS Council (and indeed anywhere in micronations) is a product of both numeric representation AND activity levels. A minority can quite easily come to dominate if its voice is heard more frequently. For an example of this process in action in the real world, look at the correlation of the multimedia explosion of the last 20 years with the steady decline in centrism of all political colours, and a gradual popular migration to extremes of ideology previously considered the preserve of diehard minorities. It is easy to imbue the opinion of the few with a power indistingiushable from objective reality if you put the word about enough, and I suspect this phenomenon - or more specifically the potential for it to be applied to nefarious ends - is at the root of the objections raised here.
The most obvious solution would be for the non-Bastionado members to step up their own activity or, if they are unable, to appoint replacements who can. Otherwise you are going to have to accept that the most dedicated chatterers will, slowly and inevitably, remould the place in their own image - even if it isn't their intention. It's just the nature of the micronational game, as this old man has found to his cost many a time.
On the plus side, you don't have an MCS IRC channel so nobody's going to wake up and discover some kind of flash coup has turned Micras into Planet Cabbage overnight. You should probably chill a little (yes, I'm aware of the irony) and lay off the parliamentary finger-waving etc.
Last edited by Edgard on Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Council's new look
I can completely understand your thinking in this situation, and I'd like to alleviate your fears by adding that only one of the two Council members in question is able to vote under normal circumstances, which I would sincerely hope is a number that would not be able to influence the rest of us. In fact, with none of the other Council members having citizenship in either Alexandria, Stormark nor Hamland, the second Bastion-associated Council member would be very unlikely to ever be able to vote on these nations' claims under the current make-up. Like I stated in my last post, the 4:2 non-Bastion-to-Bastion ratio of all six Council members actually feels to me to be a perfectly reasonable balance in respect to the overall association of our entire community.Edgard wrote:These two appointments have inherent anti-Hammish/Storsih/Alexandrian biases. Given how in the past certain policies were not applied consistently, I am sincerely afraid that you and Rasmus would use your influence and position in the Council to harm other nations and instead advance your own interests. Not to mention I feel it throws the balance of Bastion/Non-Bastion nations off in a community where many feel that all there is to Micras is Bastion. My interest is to make sure the MCS stays as an impartial, communal organization.
My interest is the same as yours when it comes to the MCS, but even more so, obviously. My impartiality extends to a point where an individual's nation's sub-community association doesn't affect my judgement of them in terms of being able to do their job in the Council, in the same way that I would think people expect me to retain my professionalism regardless of where Craitland bases its discussions
Re: Council's new look
>People debating the make up of the council as if we do more than just type "AYE" and occasionally move topics.
Besides this, the only reason I applied for the council in the first place is because resolutions take ages to get through. Myself, Joe and Adám are pretty much all online everyday, which means passing things through is likely to be done quickly, and on the few occasions there have been problems, we've been able to deal with them fairly rapidly.
Besides this, the only reason I applied for the council in the first place is because resolutions take ages to get through. Myself, Joe and Adám are pretty much all online everyday, which means passing things through is likely to be done quickly, and on the few occasions there have been problems, we've been able to deal with them fairly rapidly.
Re: Council's new look
I appear to be active enough to participate in this discussion, the fact that I am not active in any micronation at the moment isn't really relevant for the MCS. Besides, I'm a junior member so I don't have very much to do anyway.Edgard wrote: I am only speaking for myself - yes, I am not a fan of you. But this is not the reason why I am opposing your appointment. Soon after the appointment you decide to up and leave for a seemingly undetermined period of time.
I strongly object to this insinuation. Either you cite an example of me breaking my word or you withdraw this insult.Two, I feel that the weakness of your word when it comes to micronational commitments should be brought up as a concern here.
I don't have a problem with those countries. I only have had a small feud with Opeyne Time and yourself. I am not a fan of how Hamland runs its affairs at the moment but that won't influence my decisions. As for Alexandria, I think it's a perfectly good nation and I have never said anything that could be interpreted as hostile to Alexandria, the only problem here is our fight after the Neridia thing. As for Stormark, I have no idea how you would think that I have something again Stormark, I have been a citizen in the past and I think that my relations with Harald and Lady Sigifrida is very good, Hell, a Stormarkian even made a great CoA for one of my projects.Also, many of us in Alexandria, not just me, have serious concerns with two people getting appointed to the Council that have, themselves, their own grudges or bad opinions of Alexandria, Hamland and Stormark. A lof of us, especially me, feel that neither one of you would serve the Council well and would seriously damage its impartiality severely. I can live with Rasmus, if there is someone like the other candidate that lost to Jack, Lady Sigifrida, on the Council to balance that out. These two appointments have inherent anti-Hammish/Storsih/Alexandrian biases.
Given how in the past certain policies were not applied consistently, I am sincerely afraid that you and Rasmus would use your influence and position in the Council to harm other nations and instead advance your own interests.
That's just your assumption, not based on any evidence and therefore just a straightforward insinuation that should be discarded immediately.
I think that Craitman has responded very eloquently to this concern.Not to mention I feel it throws the balance of Bastion/Non-Bastion nations off in a community where many feel that all there is to Micras is Bastion. My interest is to make sure the MCS stays as an impartial, communal organization. Otherwise, we will have to seriously rethink our commitments to the MCS map, as the Imperial Assembly in Alexandria has voted to approve.
You can rest assured that I will judge any claim on its merit and not on my personal opinion of members of those countries, something that those attacking the recent appointments clearly still have to learn.Craitman wrote: I can completely understand your thinking in this situation, and I'd like to alleviate your fears by adding that only one of the two Council members in question is able to vote under normal circumstances, which I would sincerely hope is a number that would not be able to influence the rest of us. In fact, with none of the other Council members having citizenship in either Alexandria, Stormark nor Hamland, the second Bastion-associated Council member would be very unlikely to ever be able to vote on these nations' claims under the current make-up. Like I stated in my last post, the 4:2 non-Bastion-to-Bastion ratio of all six Council members actually feels to me to be a perfectly reasonable balance in respect to the overall association of our entire community.
My interest is the same as yours when it comes to the MCS, but even more so, obviously. My impartiality extends to a point where an individual's nation's sub-community association doesn't affect my judgement of them in terms of being able to do their job in the Council, in the same way that I would think people expect me to retain my professionalism regardless of where Craitland bases its discussions
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Re: Council's new look
I think the problem is that countries want to make sure that their claims and development are well understood in the Council. The reason I had raised examples of good practice is because I wanted to show that countries will be happier with Council members which they feel understand clearly what is happening in their country, as they will feel they get a fairer judgement.
Re: Council's new look
I see absolutely nothing wrong with these appointments in procedure or substance. Jack's leave appeared to be an issue previously but he's made clear that he will be around for important issues, which I take to mean voting in the Council. My humble word of advice as a Council veteran is that Councillors owe it to the Micran community to be checking and voting on claims every 1-3 days and not to meet that might cause ire; if extended leave is sought, then resignation from the Council is in order. I had to be defenestrated twice!
As to the issue about imbalance, Yastreb's point about activity is correct, but perhaps not in relation to PPD on national fora. The four applications came from two people who are truly Bastionados (the appointees), one pretty much full Bastionado (Gilles - correct me if he has a substantial presence elsewhere, I note he has deleted his nation on Bastion, but I consider him quite Bastioncentric) and Lady Sigrdrífa, who partially spends time on Bastion among other places. If more applications supported by previous work had come from outside Bastion, I expect the final appointments would have been different. Many Bastion people take a close interest in the MCS and cartography, but also other Hub institutions like the MTO, hence why some have jumped at this opportunity. The Maps thread on this forum shows everyone and their aunt are mapping in this sector, but they didn't choose to apply to these roles, so we can't criticise the Council for not appointing them.
I am honoured that Lewis would describe me as a respectable Council member during my time and thank him for that comment. I would say that this should be an opportunity for us to move forward as a Micras sector, not separate quarrelling sub-sectors, and learn from each other. It's for Rasmus and Jack to earn the respect of those parts of the community they are less familiar with or friendly towards. (Rasmus in particular is a bit of a divisive character, so you may have to humour him.) This requires visiting, commenting, understanding. The MCS was founded to bring nations together and provide for a shared space. All sides should lower their weapons - I note Alexandria threatening to explore other options, as well as Jack's less than conciliatory tone above - and remember the mission of this Society.
As to the issue about imbalance, Yastreb's point about activity is correct, but perhaps not in relation to PPD on national fora. The four applications came from two people who are truly Bastionados (the appointees), one pretty much full Bastionado (Gilles - correct me if he has a substantial presence elsewhere, I note he has deleted his nation on Bastion, but I consider him quite Bastioncentric) and Lady Sigrdrífa, who partially spends time on Bastion among other places. If more applications supported by previous work had come from outside Bastion, I expect the final appointments would have been different. Many Bastion people take a close interest in the MCS and cartography, but also other Hub institutions like the MTO, hence why some have jumped at this opportunity. The Maps thread on this forum shows everyone and their aunt are mapping in this sector, but they didn't choose to apply to these roles, so we can't criticise the Council for not appointing them.
I am honoured that Lewis would describe me as a respectable Council member during my time and thank him for that comment. I would say that this should be an opportunity for us to move forward as a Micras sector, not separate quarrelling sub-sectors, and learn from each other. It's for Rasmus and Jack to earn the respect of those parts of the community they are less familiar with or friendly towards. (Rasmus in particular is a bit of a divisive character, so you may have to humour him.) This requires visiting, commenting, understanding. The MCS was founded to bring nations together and provide for a shared space. All sides should lower their weapons - I note Alexandria threatening to explore other options, as well as Jack's less than conciliatory tone above - and remember the mission of this Society.
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Now just Vilhelm Benkern, Count of Mar Sara
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Re: Council's new look
Of course, it's just that I thought the charter said there would be a "vote" on the appointments, these usually have a start and an end. Not intended to limit you in any way...Edgard wrote:I was under the impression that anyone can voice their opposition any time on the appointments, I didn't know the MCS suddenly turned into Cabbageland.
Re: Council's new look
Three, don't forget Jingdao...Edgard wrote:Also, I should mention - only two nations have voiced their objections. Two. Hardly a mass of people or a "large influence". Hilarious you'd play the victim card.
Re: Council's new look
Jingdao wishes to express its confidence in Jack again now he has returned.
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Re: Council's new look
Newest update:
DECISION OF THE COUNCIL
5 September 2017
The Council has decided that its membership shall be as follows:
The Council thus seeks the confidence of the Members of the MCS for this arrangement.
- Craitman H. Pellegrino ("Craitman")
Administrator-General
Joe Foxon ("joefoxon")
Barnaby Hands ("Senya")
Jack Lewis ("Jack")
Lady Sigrdrífa ("Forn Siðr Fúrstafrúa")
Senior Councillors
Krasniy Yastreb ("Yastreb")
Junior Councillor
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Re: Council's new look
Following the changes made 05/11/18:
DECISION OF THE COUNCIL
5 November 2018
The Council has decided that its membership shall be as follows:
The Council thus seeks the confidence of the Members of the MCS for this arrangement.
- Craitman H. Pellegrino ("Craitman")
Administrator-General
Joe Foxon ("joefoxon")
Barnaby Hands ("Senya")
Jack Lewis ("Jack")
Krasniy Yastreb ("Yastreb")
Senior Councillors
Edgard Carrillo ("Edgard")
Junior Councillor
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Re: Council's new look
For our new Junior's addition:
DECISION OF THE COUNCIL
18 February 2019
The Council has decided that its membership shall be as follows:
The Council thus seeks the confidence of the Members of the MCS for this arrangement.
- Craitman H. Pellegrino ("Craitman")
Administrator-General
Joe Foxon ("joefoxon")
Barnaby Hands ("Senya")
Jack Lewis ("Jack")
Krasniy Yastreb ("Yastreb")
Senior Councillors
Jezza Rasmus ("Rasmus")
Junior Councillor