Ammendments
-
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:34 pm
- Location: Novatainia
- Contact:
Ammendments
Here's an attempt to try and put together some of the ammendments discussed that the current war has revealed. I figure if I put them in writing, you've then got something solid to pick apart, rewrite and put back together
For reference, the official current updated version is here:
http://www.novatainia.org/phpBB3/viewto ... 62&start=0
Ammendments
Section I: Change all references to the MRWS to this forum. The MRWS is dead, and this forum seems to have been left here, so we may as well keep common law etc here. It'd read
Added section B (all current sections would be bumped down one) which basically says "easily locatable city descriptions count." As long as they're within the allowable reality of the war (for example, in a war with absolutely no magic, MANA would be ignored from the description for St Nova. Or Straylight might be ignored in Shireroth, when technology limits are strictly enforced). For future reference, my meaning of "easily locatable" is if the main forum has a "region" section, or, better, sections for each region (such as Novatainia, Shireroth, Cerulea, Toketi, old NB etc to name a few), then they count. If those descriptions are hidden away in some ancient post at the bottom of the chat forum, you aren't expected to find them.
Note there is a difference between city and defensive structure ...
And add a part F to pre-war preparations.
Section J shall be moved (see below)
as will M and N ... (I'll fix the letters left as appropriate)
ALL NEW SECTION VI (the current VI is bumped down.
Also note the that D includes the phrase "nor increase their combat potential" ... I'm not sure if it's the correct one for what I mean, given how C is to be used. Also note that C and E don't apply to enemy territories. And note the subtle difference between civilians (man on the street) and non-orbat units (who can have skills and do things civilians couldn't). And finally, note the difference between Existing National Defence's defensive/offensive capabilities, and unlisted stuff that's appropriated anyway. If you listed it as existing, it CAN raise combat potential ... It's exactly the same as the difference between a city description that says it has walls, and a wall in Existing National Defence. If that's all making sense.
I think that's all the changes needed. Oh, and any references to VI would be changed to VII. Obviously.
For reference, the official current updated version is here:
http://www.novatainia.org/phpBB3/viewto ... 62&start=0
Ammendments
Section I: Change all references to the MRWS to this forum. The MRWS is dead, and this forum seems to have been left here, so we may as well keep common law etc here. It'd read
Oh, II.A as wellB. At the current time, 'Existing National Defence' is held within the Ministry of Defence of individual nations, and the 'Common Law' will be held in the Convention Forum, and only information within the Convention Forum or individual Ministry of Defence BEFORE the commencement of fighting will be used in the war.
C. This convention may be judged by any Judge agreed upon by both opposing parties. For the judgements of the war to be added to the Common Law at the cessation of hostilities, the conflict must be international, unless otherwise approved by the international community.
Now, clearing up that city thing - III.AA. Any Member who can provide two opposing sides may submit a declaration of war to the Convention. Wars will be provided with their own forums as soon as possible. The war may either be held on a forum mutually agreed by both sides, such as a national forum, or on a suitably impartial forum such as MCS.
The changes are: appended section A to allow people to post stuff later if they already had one but forgot to put it up at the start of the war. Shouldn't be mean about it.A. Nation's may utilise pre-existing defences in their country if they follow two requirements.
i. Detail their defensive structures in a single, public post in their Ministry of Defence or equivalent.
ii. When entering the war, place in their national orbats that they having existing defensive structures and include a link. The opposing side then has 2 days before the commencement of fighting to look over the defenses and raise any concerns they have about it with the Judge.
Where a nation has such a post existing before the war but forgets to link to it, they may link to it at any time during the war. The opposing side has the same 2 days to raise concerns.
B. Where a nation has city, regional or terrain descriptions publicly available on their forum, and such descriptions are in a reasonably intuitive place, these descriptions will be considered valid descriptions of the city/region/terrain during the war, as long as they conform to the allowable reality of the war. A link need not be included to such descriptions. Where such descriptions do not exist, the MCS Physical Map or equivalent will be considered authoritative.
Added section B (all current sections would be bumped down one) which basically says "easily locatable city descriptions count." As long as they're within the allowable reality of the war (for example, in a war with absolutely no magic, MANA would be ignored from the description for St Nova. Or Straylight might be ignored in Shireroth, when technology limits are strictly enforced). For future reference, my meaning of "easily locatable" is if the main forum has a "region" section, or, better, sections for each region (such as Novatainia, Shireroth, Cerulea, Toketi, old NB etc to name a few), then they count. If those descriptions are hidden away in some ancient post at the bottom of the chat forum, you aren't expected to find them.
Note there is a difference between city and defensive structure ...
And add a part F to pre-war preparations.
Oh, random aside - Extreme, section IV.E ...F. Where a nation does not have all it's citizens enter the war at an outset, but considers that some might join later, a list of all possible citizens that might join should be provided with one of the orbats of the nation. While there is no obligation for these citizens to join, it ensures that other participants are aware that new participants may join from that nation if it is attacked etc. It is permissible to have this list in the National Defence post and have it include all possible commanders of the nation (including ones already in the war) if that is easier for the member nation.
Just thought I'd bring that up ...Even if the item named is an item existing in the real world, basic strength details MUST still be included on the orbat, so the strength of each orbat can be properly understood before combat, instead of relying on peoples military knowledge
This is really going off topic but ... I've always wondered what this section meant about foot soldiers. 50 pixels is like 300 miles. Is this assuming that they have trucks/transport? If so, I'd liek to change "foot soldiers" to "land vehicles"IV
I. Foot soldiers can move about 50 pixels on the MCS map per real time day, perhaps a hundred if you push them. Boats can move about five hundred pixels a day. Planes move instantaneously but cannot move far from a base - either a friendly city or a carrier.
Section J shall be moved (see below)
as will M and N ... (I'll fix the letters left as appropriate)
This sorts out the starting stuff. People start in capital/region (whichever appropriate). Where that area is occupied by the enemy or currently under attack, they start elsewhere. They can't attack within the first 24 hours, only defend their starting location (this wasn't discussed in the other thread, but is exactly the same as for someone who's units come back after being away for three days. It made sense to use the same penalty). Remember, that location is away from current fighting. [In the rare situation a whole country is completely occupied but hasn't surrendered yet, and someone joins, they'd just have to negotiate with the occupier to either start in an area with no current troops, or to start in unclaimed land nearby] The final condition is that they have to be named beforehand (to stop people being accused of pulling citizens out of nowhere). Note that this restriction may be waived by agreement with the enemy.O.
Any persons joining the war midway is subject to the following restrictions:
i. Where fighting has occurred within the country they are fighting for (whether because their country is already involved in the war and they are only now joining and posting their orbat, or because of an agreement by their country to allow fighting within it before their country entered the war) MUST start within their country's capital OR their personal region, whichever is appropriate. Where their appropriate starting location is occupied by the enemy/being attacked, they must start in a suitably nearby friendly location agreed between them and the enemy occupying the starting location. Where their country has not had fighting occurring within it already, it is assumed their forces may already have been mobilised and may start anywhere within their country's territory.
ii. They must make a post in the war thread explaining their starting location. For the next 24 hours, they can take no further actions except to defend, but they may be attacked.
iii. Where their country has already entered the war without them, they must have been named in the country's earlier orbat/National Defence Post, as in II.F. This requirement may be waived by agreement with the opposing side.
ALL NEW SECTION VI (the current VI is bumped down.
Section VI.E is my attempted remake of old IV.J to apply to non-sea units. Some of you guys around for the Jaris war seem used to appropriating a lot more non-orbatted stuff than my generation, so see if C and E meet your understanding of what's already allowed. CITRA's gone in the other direction - everything that is to be used militariliy, even civilians, is costed - but then transport isn't an issue when teleportation is available ...VI. Non-Orbatted Units
A. Civilians may only be used to a limited degree in war. Friendly civilians may be used to do any activity they could be reasonably expected to do, given their national character. However, the effect of that activity against opposing forces is limited to spying and lowering their morale. Civilians (and any other non-orbatted units) may not destroy any orbatted units, but they may give them minor injuries (bruises, dents etc) that will lower their morale. Enemy civilians may only be used to do an activity that is reasonable given their circumstances. They may only be used to assist the opposing forces if it can be shown that their spirit is entirely broken, or reasonable force has been used against them to force them to do such an action. Any building or assistance carried out by enemy civilians will be of an inferior quality than that of friendly civilians.
B. Actions may be directed against civilians. Any action against a civilian may be responded to by any participant from that nation or otherwise with responsibility for that civilian. The 24 hour rule may be imposed against civilians.
C. Participants can consider to have access to the infrastructure and facilities of friendly nations, where nationally appropriate. They may commandeer vehicles, use city radar facilities, communicate with satellites etc. However, any infastructure or facilities accessed in this way that were not listed in Existing National Defence are considred non-orbatted units, and have the restrictions thereof.
D. Non-orbatted units can also include named Commanders, politicians, diplomats, secret service agents and anyone else whose purpose is for story advancement. Such non-orbatted units may be used by participants as much as they want, as long as they do not destroy or significantly damage any orbatted unit, nor increase their combat potential (a commander cannot dismantle a soldiers gun and create a bomb to use against combat units, for example, even if he would possess the knowledge in character to do so.) Non-orbatted units may damage other non-orbatted units as is normally possible within the accepted reality of the war.
E. Orbatted units can be considered to acquire civilian transport between friendly cities. This transport can be trucks, trains, commercial planes, civilian ships etc. Where such transport crosses a warzone, however, orbatted units within the warzone may attack the transport and it is considered to have no defences for the purposes of resisting attack.
Also note the that D includes the phrase "nor increase their combat potential" ... I'm not sure if it's the correct one for what I mean, given how C is to be used. Also note that C and E don't apply to enemy territories. And note the subtle difference between civilians (man on the street) and non-orbat units (who can have skills and do things civilians couldn't). And finally, note the difference between Existing National Defence's defensive/offensive capabilities, and unlisted stuff that's appropriated anyway. If you listed it as existing, it CAN raise combat potential ... It's exactly the same as the difference between a city description that says it has walls, and a wall in Existing National Defence. If that's all making sense.
I think that's all the changes needed. Oh, and any references to VI would be changed to VII. Obviously.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
-
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:34 pm
- Location: Novatainia
- Contact:
Re: Ammendments
Oh, another much needed ammendment:
V.H. Where a commander has not responded within 24 hours, the attacker has the right to assume the battle went in their favour and post reasonable losses for both sides. They may NOT assume the opposing army just stood there and was slaughtered – they must assume the army defended itself. But they may post slightly higher losses than they would otherwise have achieved.
Because of IV.H, the 24 hour rule cannot be used against the same commander more than twice in a row. A second 24 hour post should include the unit in question dispersing or running.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
-
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:26 pm
Re: Ammendments
How about instead,Because of IV.H, the 24 hour rule cannot be used against the same commander more than twice in a row. A second 24 hour post should include the unit in question dispersing or running.
"In order to use the 24 hour rule against the same commander, right after having used the 24-hour rule already, a player must wait for 48 hours instead of the usual 24 hours. At the end of the 48 hours, the player can use the rule against the commander. However, directly after the play of this rule, the 3-day rule would apply on the commander who was 24-houred against."
This way, we increase the time available for the commander to show up. First we provide them with 24 hours. If they fail (for whatever reason), they are given 48 hours. If they still fail to show up (meaning they have been absent for 72 hours at least), then we use the 3-day rule on that commander's unit.
I personally think this should be handled at the start of the war only. Anything afterwards, just screws up the time and speed of the war. For instance, using the current war as example, say Toketi posts things now about their defenses. Are we going to wait for 2 days for the opposition to go through their list? In the meantime, my forces would just be sitting there wondering what to do next. My forces are losing time here, while my allies are getting destroyed in Jasonia. Had I known of Toketi's defense structures beforehand, then I might not have planed on going after them. Under this rule, we'd have to wait for 2 days before any action is potentially seen in the Toketi side. If at the end of it all, I decide that its impossible to gain any advantage, then I would have lost 2 days worth of support to my allies near Jasonia.Where a nation has such a post existing before the war but forgets to link to it, they may link to it at any time during the war. The opposing side has the same 2 days to raise concerns.
I think all participating nations, irrespective of where they are in the world, should post links at the start. Anyone failing to do so, would not have their posted defenses considered.
For nations that join midway, then for them, this rule should apply. One could argue that they are losing potential time in helping their allies, but let's not forget that their presence is going to support their allies anyway. The advantage for their allies is that a new nation is joining to fight along side them. The disadvantage is that they have to wait for 2 days at least before that takes place.
Again, a link should be provided. You already have this Roman guy complaining about having to wiki all the units. Do you really expect the rest of the people to go around browsing through entire forums looking for a description? I think the participating nation should post (one only) link saying this is what the cities look like. For nations like Toketi or Shireroth, that link could be a post which has further links in it to exact descriptions. This should be the responsibility of defending nations, as opposed to those attacking them.B. Where a nation has city, regional or terrain descriptions publicly available on their forum, and such descriptions are in a reasonably intuitive place, these descriptions will be considered valid descriptions of the city/region/terrain during the war, as long as they conform to the allowable reality of the war. A link need not be included to such descriptions. Where such descriptions do not exist, the MCS Physical Map or equivalent will be considered authoritative.
I think that with all these requirements, we should just make a form that every nation participating in a given war has to fill out. Every war, you need to re-provide the form. Old forms do not get carried over. Nations can just make a post in their national forum somewhere keeping this data, and every new war, they simply copy-paste it, and update the information as required.F. Where a nation does not have all it's citizens enter the war at an outset, but considers that some might join later, a list of all possible citizens that might join should be provided with one of the orbats of the nation. While there is no obligation for these citizens to join, it ensures that other participants are aware that new participants may join from that nation if it is attacked etc. It is permissible to have this list in the National Defence post and have it include all possible commanders of the nation (including ones already in the war) if that is easier for the member nation.
This is really something, isn't it? What if a land vehicle is really fast? Not armoured at all or something. Say, every soldier drives a Lamborghini ! Or say this is the BC era war and people can only walk to other places.This is really going off topic but ... I've always wondered what this section meant about foot soldiers. 50 pixels is like 300 miles. Is this assuming that they have trucks/transport? If so, I'd like to change "foot soldiers" to "land vehicles"
Bold Just a bit of wording really. The later part should include being occupied or being/been attacked.Any persons joining the war midway is subject to the following restrictions:
i. Where fighting has occurred within the country they are fighting for (whether because their country is already involved in the war and they are only now joining and posting their orbat, or because of an agreement by their country to allow fighting within it before their country entered the war) MUST start within their country's capital OR their personal region, whichever is appropriate. Where their appropriate starting location is occupied by the enemy/being attacked, they must start in a suitably nearby friendly location agreed between them and the enemy occupying the starting location. Where their country has not had fighting occurring within it already, it is assumed their forces may already have been mobilized and may start anywhere within their country's territory.
ii. They must make a post in the war thread explaining their starting location. For the next 24 hours, they can take no further actions except to defend themselves, but they may be attacked.
iii. Where their country has already entered the war without them, they must have been named in the country's earlier orbat/National Defence Post, as in II.F. This requirement may be waived by agreement with the opposing side.
Italics To make it clear.
Those were unwritten laws sort of a thing.Some of you guys around for the Jaris war seem used to appropriating a lot more non-orbatted stuff than my generation, so see if C and E meet your understanding of what's already allowed.
Ok, so, do refueling air tankers for instance be counted as non-orbatted ? Does replenishment ships, which resupply and rearm the navy, count as non-orbatted ? After all, the replenishment ship does actually increase combat potential by providing a new set of ammunition !D. Non-orbatted units can also include named Commanders, politicians, diplomats, secret service agents and anyone else whose purpose is for story advancement. Such non-orbatted units may be used by participants as much as they want, as long as they do not destroy or significantly damage any orbatted unit, nor increase their combat potential (a commander cannot dismantle a soldiers gun and create a bomb to use against combat units, for example, even if he would possess the knowledge in character to do so.) Non-orbatted units may damage other non-orbatted units as is normally possible within the accepted reality of the war.
Also note the that D includes the phrase "nor increase their combat potential" ... I'm not sure if it's the correct one for what I mean, given how C is to be used. Also note that C and E don't apply to enemy territories. And note the subtle difference between civilians (man on the street) and non-orbat units (who can have skills and do things civilians couldn't). And finally, note the difference between Existing National Defence's defensive/offensive capabilities, and unlisted stuff that's appropriated anyway. If you listed it as existing, it CAN raise combat potential ... It's exactly the same as the difference between a city description that says it has walls, and a wall in Existing National Defence. If that's all making sense.
I dont think I understand the difference between unlisted stuff and existing national defense.
-
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:34 pm
- Location: Novatainia
- Contact:
Re: Ammendments
That's a good idea. We'll put that in."In order to use the 24 hour rule against the same commander, right after having used the 24-hour rule already, a player must wait for 48 hours instead of the usual 24 hours. At the end of the 48 hours, the player can use the rule against the commander. However, directly after the play of this rule, the 3-day rule would apply on the commander who was 24-houred against."
Would it be better if it's said "those defences do not count until after those two days" but attacks can continue as normal?I personally think this should be handled at the start of the war only. Anything afterwards, just screws up the time and speed of the war. For instance, using the current war as example, say Toketi posts things now about their defenses. Are we going to wait for 2 days for the opposition to go through their list? In the meantime, my forces would just be sitting there wondering what to do next. My forces are losing time here, while my allies are getting destroyed in Jasonia. Had I known of Toketi's defense structures beforehand, then I might not have planed on going after them. Under this rule, we'd have to wait for 2 days before any action is potentially seen in the Toketi side. If at the end of it all, I decide that its impossible to gain any advantage, then I would have lost 2 days worth of support to my allies near Jasonia.
I think all participating nations, irrespective of where they are in the world, should post links at the start. Anyone failing to do so, would not have their posted defenses considered.
If we had a form we got everyone to fill out (as you suggested below) that's fine. As it is, few people have bothered with existing national defence and so it's easy to forget.
Sorry, I'm working from a Novatainia/Shirithian perspective. You may misunderstand the nature of our cities. On Novatainia, each and every city has a description. Most have a unique character. And each one is named by subforum and so the best you'd get for "link" would be this. Would that be suitable?Again, a link should be provided. You already have this Roman guy complaining about having to wiki all the units. Do you really expect the rest of the people to go around browsing through entire forums looking for a description? I think the participating nation should post (one only) link saying this is what the cities look like. For nations like Toketi or Shireroth, that link could be a post which has further links in it to exact descriptions. This should be the responsibility of defending nations, as opposed to those attacking them.
Good idea. That would remind everyone to include the info.I think that with all these requirements, we should just make a form that every nation participating in a given war has to fill out. Every war, you need to re-provide the form. Old forms do not get carried over. Nations can just make a post in their national forum somewhere keeping this data, and every new war, they simply copy-paste it, and update the information as required.
Remember, I come from the era where appropriating a car for every soldier went out of fashion. I was just asking, as I'd always read it as "foot soldiers on foot" before.This is really something, isn't it? What if a land vehicle is really fast? Not armoured at all or something. Say, every soldier drives a Lamborghini ! Or say this is the BC era war and people can only walk to other places.
Good change.Bold Just a bit of wording really. The later part should include being occupied or being/been attacked.
Italics To make it clear.
And being unwritten, those of us after the Jaris war totally missed them and developed recwarring without them ... hence why we're writing them in now.Those were unwritten laws sort of a thing.
I don't know. I'm asking this so it can be made clear. I'm thoroughly confused by how much some of you older recwarrers seem used to bringing along.Ok, so, do refueling air tankers for instance be counted as non-orbatted ? Does replenishment ships, which resupply and rearm the navy, count as non-orbatted ? After all, the replenishment ship does actually increase combat potential by providing a new set of ammunition !
EDIT: Wait, I have a better explanation. Someone resupplying you is different from increasing combat potential. I've always worked under the assumption units have unlimited stores of bullets/food/missiles/fuel etc around at your base. And you have all standard equipment of that unit, if it's a real world one. Maybe those are assumption that should be written in - whatever. But by having it as a replenishment ship specifically instead of just ignoring the logistics - that doesn't increase your combat potential beyond your orbat. It just restores you to your combat potential. Refueling doesn't add anything that wasn't there at the start of the war. It just restores what you had. If your replenishment ships were bringing you nerve gas when previously your infantry had had none, and never mentioned having any, for example - that would be "increasing combat potential" and not be allowed.
Refueling mid air is a little different. That can effectively double the range of your aircraft. If you use that to refuel over your base instead of landing, fine. But if you use them in strategic spots where no orbatted troop exists, to double your plane's range - that's cheating. Those things should have been orbatted.
Well, National Defence is going to be better for a start. Take the fact that Novatainia has bunkers in many houses. Scott had to dig trenches manually to get basic defences - Novatainia (mainland) has them already, as declared. Anything that you bring in (in terms of defence for orbatted troops) is going to not be as good as existing declared stuff.I dont think I understand the difference between unlisted stuff and existing national defense.
If it *is* as good, then people could:
a. make up whatever they wanted halfway through the war and
b. you'd have had to account for, say, all the guns defending the facility in Damev.
EDIT: If it's easier, Extreme, since you're used to working under these unwritten laws, would you like to try writing that section instead? Write it so as to make clear the assumptions you're working under, or even write it so as to show the absolute maximum of non-orbatted stuff a person could use.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
-
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:26 pm
Re: Ammendments
As long as its easily findable. Say within one or two clicks, without having to search/research a lot. For instance, if all the cities of Novatainia are on that page (like St. Nova, Novatica etc...) then that's fine. But if its like Toketi's, where I have to first click on the region's forum, then on the city's forum, that's a bit too long and requires the player (in this case, me) to know which region the city belongs in.Sorry, I'm working from a Novatainia/Shirithian perspective. You may misunderstand the nature of our cities. On Novatainia, each and every city has a description. Most have a unique character. And each one is named by subforum and so the best you'd get for "link" would be this. Would that be suitable?
Another option available for participating nations is to have a thread or a post somewhere in their forums listing all the cities and a link to them. So, for instance, say there's a post in Novatainia somewhere (doesn't matter where) that says:
Its a one time thing, depending upon how often the list of cities changes in the nation ! With that post made, the nation could simply give us a link to that post. After that, its simple to follow.Hello, here are the cities:
For St. Nova, click here.
For Novatica, click here.
...
...
I personally always used it as with vehicles. Anything army related, essentially. The aircraft was anything air force related, and the sea units obviously anything navy related.Remember, I come from the era where appropriating a car for every soldier went out of fashion. I was just asking, as I'd always read it as "foot soldiers on foot" before.
So, basically what you are saying is that if I have two cities, both mentioned and linked and everything. One city (city ABC) has in its description saying there are guns defending the entire city. The other city (city XYZ) does not have any such descriptions. I go to war, and my enemies are approaching the two cities. At this point in war, I claim that guns are brought in to defend city XYZ. Now, when the enemy strikes at both the cities, my guns at ABC would be more effective than my guns at XYZ ? Is that what the difference is ?Well, National Defence is going to be better for a start. Take the fact that Novatainia has bunkers in many houses. Scott had to dig trenches manually to get basic defences - Novatainia (mainland) has them already, as declared. Anything that you bring in (in terms of defence for orbatted troops) is going to not be as good as existing declared stuff.
If it *is* as good, then people could:
a. make up whatever they wanted halfway through the war and
b. you'd have had to account for, say, all the guns defending the facility in Damev.
-
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:34 pm
- Location: Novatainia
- Contact:
Re: Ammendments
To your final question (the only one that needs a response) - yes. Except you wouldn't be allowed guns at all, because that requires manpower and has to be orbatted. But if the example was with walls, then yes. Your opponent could even protest the second city doesn't *have* walls.
Not taking up my offer to write up the rules? Then I'll try this the other way (sorry, I'm used to Bayen writing up charters and me picking all the holes in them).
Take Gman's forces - all marines with normal guns - no vehicles or anything else. Which of the following actions would be appropriate, in your opinion? (assuming correct procedure re pming judges and posting moves is followed). I don't care what's realistically possible - just what's allowable under the rules and spirit of recwarring.
a. Hiring several civilian planes from Nova Kajar to fly to Novatica.
b. En route, forcing the pilots to change and land on Airosamente (Ardy's island)
c. Assuming Ardy didn't notice them, getting off the plane, having one man get back on and fly each of the planes to suicide on Ardy's forces.
d. Going into Airosamente (or any other suitably big city) and buying/stealing a lot of petrol and a match.
e. Planting said petrol around Ardy's wall and blowing it up using that.
f. While they were in Airosamente, forcing several computer hackers there to join them. When they get into Ardy's camp, using said computer hackers to recalibrate all his missiles to fire on him. Setting that, and then leaving. [if missiles is too easy ... make it 'sneaking into a location with computerised alarms' and 'changing all the alarms around'.]
Yes, I'm being frivolous , but its needs to be clear where you draw the line between using non-orbatted things and abusing them.
Not taking up my offer to write up the rules? Then I'll try this the other way (sorry, I'm used to Bayen writing up charters and me picking all the holes in them).
Take Gman's forces - all marines with normal guns - no vehicles or anything else. Which of the following actions would be appropriate, in your opinion? (assuming correct procedure re pming judges and posting moves is followed). I don't care what's realistically possible - just what's allowable under the rules and spirit of recwarring.
a. Hiring several civilian planes from Nova Kajar to fly to Novatica.
b. En route, forcing the pilots to change and land on Airosamente (Ardy's island)
c. Assuming Ardy didn't notice them, getting off the plane, having one man get back on and fly each of the planes to suicide on Ardy's forces.
d. Going into Airosamente (or any other suitably big city) and buying/stealing a lot of petrol and a match.
e. Planting said petrol around Ardy's wall and blowing it up using that.
f. While they were in Airosamente, forcing several computer hackers there to join them. When they get into Ardy's camp, using said computer hackers to recalibrate all his missiles to fire on him. Setting that, and then leaving. [if missiles is too easy ... make it 'sneaking into a location with computerised alarms' and 'changing all the alarms around'.]
Yes, I'm being frivolous , but its needs to be clear where you draw the line between using non-orbatted things and abusing them.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
-
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:26 pm
Re: Ammendments
Hmmm. didn't know what you were talking about there, until I went back and noticed the EDIT. I missed that. Anyways, I am sorta like you in that I like to pick holes. But I'll try to figure out something up. Ask Scott as well. He, i believe, wrote SNARL.Not taking up my offer to write up the rules? Then I'll try this the other way (sorry, I'm used to Bayen writing up charters and me picking all the holes in them).
1. First of all, Nova Kajar to Novatica is a very long range. You'd have to find transport aircrafts that are able to fly that distance. If there is, it (aircraft name) needs to be mentioned (real world equivalent needs to be there). If there isn't, then we can assume he has access to refueling tankers along the way, or that he's stopping at other cities in the path to refuel. Either ways, he needs to mention what he's doing. If it is cities of neutral nation, it would be nice to have that nation's permission made available.a. Hiring several civilian planes from Nova Kajar to fly to Novatica.
b. En route, forcing the pilots to change and land on Airosamente (Ardy's island)
c. Assuming Ardy didn't notice them, getting off the plane, having one man get back on and fly each of the planes to suicide on Ardy's forces.
d. Going into Airosamente (or any other suitably big city) and buying/stealing a lot of petrol and a match.
e. Planting said petrol around Ardy's wall and blowing it up using that.
f. While they were in Airosamente, forcing several computer hackers there to join them. When they get into Ardy's camp, using said computer hackers to recalibrate all his missiles to fire on him. Setting that, and then leaving. [if missiles is too easy ... make it 'sneaking into a location with computerised alarms' and 'changing all the alarms around'.]
2. If the transport aircraft is a non-real world one (ie, made by a micronation), then it should be open to scrutiny during the start of war. Like we are already planning using the existing defense stuff. I personally base my aircrafts on real world counterparts, but with slight improvements and modifications. For instance, if I base my aircraft on a transport aircraft that has a range of 8560 kms, then I might say my aircraft has a range of 8600 or something that is a nice round figure.
3. In point one, if the whole process is a secret action, then all of that information needs to be provided to the judge. If its not a secret action, then it can be mentioned in the post.
4. If both, Nova Kajar and Novatica are not under enemy threat, as well as there's no enemy presence en route, then they can fly easily using military transports, that they just make up (or should be present in existing defense list? that's a rule we can decide on. i dont mind either ways.) If however, say there's an enemy unit in the path (for instance the lovely fleet), then they can either try to go around them or risk flying through them and getting shot. if they go around them, I do not see how the enemy unit (lovely fleet) would be able to know about this movement and engage them. If the enemy unit is going through the fleet, then they will obviously get shot at.
5. For point 4, if Gman was making a secret action, and he flies over the lovely fleet, depending upon what the lovely fleet was doing at the moment, the secret action would become un-secret. Similarly, if lovely fleet was there in a secret move, then their position would get identified. This all 'secret' related actions would have to be informed by the judge, because only they know what's happening in the entire scope.
All of that was just the base. Now, I'll talk about your points:
a. Allowed. But the size of commercial fleet hired would depend. Hiring 100 aircrafts isn't possible. That's a bit of cheating. Hiring 2 or 4, easily available. Hiring 10 or 20, would in my opinion be based on the size of airport. If its a large one, yeah I'd be willing to consider. If its a small one, I would object to that.
b. Assuming that city has an airport of equal or greater size (runway sizes matter), then yes. Especially if its commercial. But then landing with 2 to 4 unauthorized planes in an enemy city would easily raise suspicion. I say unauthorized because even civilian aircrafts need to get permission to land on other airports. Their flight routes, plans and timings are all known before hand. Though this all is material for keeping the story flowing. This action would be allowed though.
c. No. Though possible, it can be easily abused, and soon everyone would start doing it. Its best to simply not allow it.
d. You can buy those things for sure. But how you gonna transport them all to your forces or, as your next question, the enemy's unit ? You can't possibly have come in with all those tankers in such a short amount of time. So, no. Similarly, in the current war, whoever who controls Yaskhona, said that they pressed some buttons and the fuels all over Yaskhona got rerouted elsewhere. It shouldn't be allowed, but I let him have it because I didn't intend on using it anyway.
e. If you managed to bring this said petrol somehow realistically speaking, and were able to plant it without Ardy knowing/doing anything about it (its easy to see someone pouring oil around your unit !), then I dont see why not. Its a story related thing. If its possible to pull it off (talk to the enemy unit's player), then go ahead and do it. In this case, Gman could either talk to Ardy and try to arrange something, or he could go single handedly and try it. Though he has to give Ardy the response time to say, 'i caught them in action. i fought them' type post.
f. First of all, getting hackers would be quite a challenge. Time and resources would have to be spent in doing so. That is to say, Gman would first have to post saying 'he's looking for hackers at the city'. Then maybe 24 hours later, he says 'i found two hackers'. Another 24 hours laters, 'i found another 10 hackers. the total of 12 hackers were sent alongside my forces to attack ardy'. These hackers, could be easily killed in the attack action. Those who survived, can't hack into missiles and use them to kill ardy! They could mess around with the alarms and create confusion. But they can't kill anyone. See the difference? One raises confusion amongst ground troops, the other tries to kill.
-
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:34 pm
- Location: Novatainia
- Contact:
Re: Ammendments
Personally, I was expecting all of those proposals except the first one to be shot down. From your reaction, I would take your view on this as the following:
Non-orbatted troops can affect non-orbatted troops
Non-orbatted troops cannot damage orbatted troops, as even if realistic, that would be cheating.
Non-orbatted troops can only damage periphery things like "defences of orbatted troops" or "morale of orbatted troops" (eg a wall to Ardy's base, or Alarm chaos)
To gain non-orbatted troops that are not listed on your Existing National Defence takes a reasonable amount of time, depending on the troop.
Is that a fair summation?
Non-orbatted troops can affect non-orbatted troops
Non-orbatted troops cannot damage orbatted troops, as even if realistic, that would be cheating.
Non-orbatted troops can only damage periphery things like "defences of orbatted troops" or "morale of orbatted troops" (eg a wall to Ardy's base, or Alarm chaos)
To gain non-orbatted troops that are not listed on your Existing National Defence takes a reasonable amount of time, depending on the troop.
Is that a fair summation?
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
-
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:26 pm
Re: Ammendments
Aye. Mostly.
I said B was allowed because those were civilian aircrafts and not Antican Military aircraft, which would be shot down at first sight.
In the example of wall to Ardy's base, I thought you meant that the soldiers belonging to Gman's unit are doing the planting of oil and everything. thus, I didn't see it as a non-orbatted unit, but rather as a strategy, with only the purchase of oil being 'non-orbatted' but that's more a story issue. An issue that Ardy would become aware off if oil from his friendly city (he is allied with that city correct?) was purchased by Anticans!Non-orbatted troops can only damage periphery things like "defences of orbatted troops" or "morale of orbatted troops" (eg a wall to Ardy's base, or Alarm chaos)
I said B was allowed because those were civilian aircrafts and not Antican Military aircraft, which would be shot down at first sight.
This could be allowed is a somewhat manner. For instance, Ardashir could say that a small three-man patrol unit of Gman's infantry unit were killed by the local civilians when they drove over a chicken that was supposed to be cooked for Ardashir. Its a small size, compared to the 25,000 infantry men available. If these three-men were special forces, it might not be allowed, since that could potentially be a significant number for Gman.Non-orbatted troops cannot damage orbatted troops, as even if realistic, that would be cheating.
-
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:34 pm
- Location: Novatainia
- Contact:
Re: Ammendments
So the purchase of equipment that Gman's men did not have was entirely appropriate if said equipment was easy enough to acquire?
On the infantry doing that ... if we let Ardy's infantry do that, what's to stop North saying, "All my civilians, because they're used to numerous wars, arm themselves with guns and rusty swords and baseball bats and come and attack your men in the airfield?"
That's what I'm trying to avoid. You can see the difference, but where do you draw the line between the extremes?
EDIT: A second attempt at IV
[As an example - if you wanted fast travel between land cities, you could put a railway in your Existing Stuff. It can be used by your troops at high speed, yes. It's also a target the enemy knows about and you don't just create out of nothing, if they choose to attack it. The train would provide (realistic) defence against attacks (unlike if you commissioned a non-existing train). A second example is if you wanted satellites tracking people, you'd put that in Existing National Defence, and be allowed to use that to locate enemy units, or detect missiles attacking your civilians. Or you'd say your troops had 'higher detection ranges' and include the costs needed for that. You couldn't do that by just relying on the basics).
Finally, it says that if you want to break all those restrictions (transport to friendly cities, civilians = average citizens, using stuff that should have been put in National defence but isn't) you can, but it takes (reasonable) time to do so, and still can't damage or destroy enemy units. For backstory, as always, all things are permissible. This section is not to stop that. This section is to stop people taking backstory too far and using it against enemy units. Hopefully most of this section is something that you operate as if it wasn't written - you shouldn't worry 'do I specifically have this'. But when you've crossed the line too far and the enemy notices and disputes it, this section says 'right, that was too far' or 'no, that's fine'.
On the infantry doing that ... if we let Ardy's infantry do that, what's to stop North saying, "All my civilians, because they're used to numerous wars, arm themselves with guns and rusty swords and baseball bats and come and attack your men in the airfield?"
That's what I'm trying to avoid. You can see the difference, but where do you draw the line between the extremes?
EDIT: A second attempt at IV
How's that? It says that only Existing Defences can provide actual defence against attack for orbatted units. It says that basic civilian [used in the sense both of non-military and of ordinary] stuff can be used [eg Scott's use of civilian bulldozers in construction is appropriate], but not to damage or destroy the enemy. It explains what 'extra' stuff people are assumed to have which 'increases their combat potential' in the sense extreme has taken the phrase. Note they can still only 'assist' orbatted units in damaging/destroying - they can't do it by themselves. It also (Scott's idea) says that these are only basic, and better stuff has to be orbatted or mentioned in Existing National Defence.VI. Non-Orbatted Units
A. Anything not mentioned in an orbat is a non-orbatted unit. Non-orbatted units can be used for two reasons - to advance the storyline, and to advance the action. There are several types of non-orbatted units, with different restrictions placed upon them. They are.
i. Existing National Defence. [As explained in III.A]
ii. Civilians, civilian infastructure and vehicles. [Normal citizens, without military training or value]
iii. Military support units and technology. [Specifically supporting your orbatted forces]
iv. Non-civilian units. [People with military training and or use that aren't specifically attached to your orbat - eg Secret service]
B. All non-orbatted units can be used to advance the storyline in any way that does not damage or destroy enemy orbatted units without their permission.
All non-orbatted units can be used to damage or destroy other non-orbatted units in anyway that would be possible given the reality of the war.
Type i and type iii non-orbatted units can be used to assist orbatted units in carrying out their mission, assist in damaging or destroying other orbatted units, and to provide concrete defence to orbatted units.
Type ii and type iv non-orbatted units cannot be used to damage or destroy orbatted units. They also cannot provide concrete defence to orbatted units. That is, if an ii or iv unit is attacked by orbatted unit, they can only avoid destruction by avoiding being hit by attacks (including by being defended by ally orbatted units or type i or iii non-orbatted units) - otherwise, the enemy can inflict whatever damages he wishes on non orbatted units hit by his attacks.
Type ii units are also restricted in action (see below)
C. Civilians (type ii non-orbatted unitsunits) may only be used to a limited degree in war. Friendly civilians may be used to do any activity they could be reasonably expected to do, given their national character. However, the effect of that activity against opposing forces is limited to spying and lowering their morale. Civilians may not destroy any orbatted units, but they may give them minor injuries (bruises, dents etc) that will lower their morale. Enemy civilians may only be used to do an activity that is reasonable given their circumstances. They may only be used to assist the opposing forces if it can be shown that their spirit is entirely broken, or reasonable force has been used against them to force them to do such an action. Any building or assistance carried out by enemy civilians will be of an inferior quality than that of friendly civilians.
D. Actions may be directed against civilians. Any action against a civilian may be responded to by any participant from that nation or otherwise with responsibility for that civilian. The 24 hour rule may be imposed against civilians.
E. Orbatted units are assumed to have the following supporting type iii non-orbatted units:
i. Land transport (unarmoured trucks or helicopters) for infantry units.
ii. Naval or Air transport by civilian-style (unarmoured) transports for Land units between friendly cities.
iii. Suitable food supplies for all people.
iv. Resupplies of ammunition, fuel, missiles etc at each established base.
v. Radio or similiar communication to allied forces.
vi. Radar or similiar detection equipment for forces that would possess it in the real world (eg SAMs, bombers etc), at the 'standard' real world quality for that unit.
vii. Commanders.
F. Where an orbatted unit wishes to have the above type of units at a strength greater than the above 'standard' provision, this must be included in their orbat and costs adjusted appropriately. For example, if land forces wished to have trucks that were armoured; advanced detection equipment; or wished to have transport being just friendly cities; this would need to be costed, provided for in Existing National Defence, or provided by another player. Any of the free transports provided here are assumed to have no defences against attack - and so if they travel through a war zone between their destinations, they risk being attacked and destroyed by the enemy.
G. If a player requires extra units without the restriction of use placed upon non-orbatted units, they may seek the services of type iv non-orbatted units. They must provide a suitable amount of time to locate such units, in a suitable location. They can then use such units to specific effect against the enemy - however, they still cannot damage or destroy orbatted units. For example computer specialists could be forced to disarm enemy alarm systems; or transports could be commandeered to take units into the warzone.
H. Finally, the restriction on non-orbatted units of not damaging or destroying enemy units may be waived by the enemy, if they so wish.
[As an example - if you wanted fast travel between land cities, you could put a railway in your Existing Stuff. It can be used by your troops at high speed, yes. It's also a target the enemy knows about and you don't just create out of nothing, if they choose to attack it. The train would provide (realistic) defence against attacks (unlike if you commissioned a non-existing train). A second example is if you wanted satellites tracking people, you'd put that in Existing National Defence, and be allowed to use that to locate enemy units, or detect missiles attacking your civilians. Or you'd say your troops had 'higher detection ranges' and include the costs needed for that. You couldn't do that by just relying on the basics).
Finally, it says that if you want to break all those restrictions (transport to friendly cities, civilians = average citizens, using stuff that should have been put in National defence but isn't) you can, but it takes (reasonable) time to do so, and still can't damage or destroy enemy units. For backstory, as always, all things are permissible. This section is not to stop that. This section is to stop people taking backstory too far and using it against enemy units. Hopefully most of this section is something that you operate as if it wasn't written - you shouldn't worry 'do I specifically have this'. But when you've crossed the line too far and the enemy notices and disputes it, this section says 'right, that was too far' or 'no, that's fine'.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander