Secret Moves
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Secret Moves
I figure I'm a little late bringing this up, but secret moves. They are the backbone of several armies' strategies, and can make or break a war.
Now what defines a good secret move?
Previously this has been defined as (in the annuia convention posted by Andreas at http://www.micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2060 , the relevant bits of which are copied here for convenience)
note- I don't care how "real" you presume any moves made by anyone were, though i'm looking to help define that a bit better.
Judge: It states that
Navy: The argument came up in the war that Navy ships should not/ should be able to make secret moves. Submarines, clearly, are able to do so, there is little argument there. But destroyers, aircraft carriers, cruisers, battleships? In this modern day and age, enemy ships would likely be tracked by any means possible, including satellite, radar (if close enough), sonar, spy planes, etc. Camouflaging an entire war ship is barely plausible, but if someone should want to do it (to help protect against visual detection), should they cost more? Should nations be able to track enemy ships via satellites (though this may be being addressed in another topic, feel free to ignore if already addressed)?
Spies: To what extent are nations able to use spies/hackers/etc? If an army is large enough, not every soldier will know everyone else (situation being similar to a college student in a large college knowing every student, faculty member, and maintenance (janitors, computer techs, etc.) on campus by face and name). Should hackers be able to penetrate an enemy nation's computer network to steal computer-stored military information? Should military men know the language of their enemies, to perform a covert operation there? If they don't, should they be able to infiltrate a camp for a lengthy period of time?
Air: Stealth craft can, but can non-stealth craft move undetected under the right conditions?
Now what defines a good secret move?
Previously this has been defined as (in the annuia convention posted by Andreas at http://www.micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2060 , the relevant bits of which are copied here for convenience)
I know in this past war (Jasonian), Many secret moves were attempted , with varying amounts of success.L. Actions can be made in secret only if there is a legitimate in-game reason and it makes sense. A wing of stealth planes can presumably attack in secret, as can a sub - an army of 100,000 men can probably not secretly march across populated enemy territory, nor a whole fleet sail around undetected. Secret actions can either be ‘stealth moves’, revealed overtly with a disclaimer that they are secret and the enemy should not know about them (such as sending a wing of stealth planes to a hidden base) or, if there is too much of a temptation for the enemy to respond, can be told to the Judge only without a corresponding post (for example, if you are getting guerrillas in position to attack an enemy city and don't want the enemy to send defenders there, or sending a few spies to infiltrate an enemy camp). The Judge has the ability to post the situation where one players move is affected by another players secret move, and where the secret move player does not want to reveal who it is doing the secret move (for example, ambushing people who move through a certain area while pretending your army is to the north of there). It is the Judge's responsibility to alert a player if a secret move cannot be done secretly and must be posted publicly, otherwise the secret move is assumed to have been successful.
note- I don't care how "real" you presume any moves made by anyone were, though i'm looking to help define that a bit better.
Judge: It states that
But what if the judge is inactive over the time period the secret move takes place? What if they do not receive the message for some unknown reason? If, then the attack happens, and people begin to say that the attack could not have taken place, do they have a base to stand on, or has the judge (through their lack of a reply) approved the attack? If the judge does not have the information needed about someone being attacked, can they assume what relevant defenses are there? Or should they ask the attacked, risking the revelation of the secret move?It is the Judge's responsibility to alert a player if a secret move cannot be done secretly and must be posted publicly, otherwise the secret move is assumed to have been successful.
Navy: The argument came up in the war that Navy ships should not/ should be able to make secret moves. Submarines, clearly, are able to do so, there is little argument there. But destroyers, aircraft carriers, cruisers, battleships? In this modern day and age, enemy ships would likely be tracked by any means possible, including satellite, radar (if close enough), sonar, spy planes, etc. Camouflaging an entire war ship is barely plausible, but if someone should want to do it (to help protect against visual detection), should they cost more? Should nations be able to track enemy ships via satellites (though this may be being addressed in another topic, feel free to ignore if already addressed)?
Spies: To what extent are nations able to use spies/hackers/etc? If an army is large enough, not every soldier will know everyone else (situation being similar to a college student in a large college knowing every student, faculty member, and maintenance (janitors, computer techs, etc.) on campus by face and name). Should hackers be able to penetrate an enemy nation's computer network to steal computer-stored military information? Should military men know the language of their enemies, to perform a covert operation there? If they don't, should they be able to infiltrate a camp for a lengthy period of time?
Air: Stealth craft can, but can non-stealth craft move undetected under the right conditions?
- chrimigules
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Re: Secret Moves
Secret moves used to be done by posting about it and specifically stating in the summary what was a secret move and what wasn't, and people were expected to go by an honor system.
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Re: Secret Moves
My personal theory (disagree if you will) is that no matter if you're supposed to know about the attack or not, once you know about it, it will factor into your planning, no matter how little. You can't un-know about it.
Ex: If I say I'm sending 500 men (in 100 man groups yadda yadda yadda) secretly to blow up an enemy city. Public post but saying "It's a secret move, you don't know about it". Some people will attempt to find a legitimate IC reason to have defenders there "Oh they were heading that way anyway, and would have stopped in the city to resupply" "The soldiers came from there and were homesick" "They got a tip off from a traitor". Probably something more thought out than those, but would they still have done so if they hadn't known about the attack?
PMing the moves to the judges provides overly paranoid people like me know that the knowledge will not be acted on.
another question: What if two secret moves conflict (two armies attack each other with secret moves, but both are not there when the attack is made (because they're off attempting to attack the other) or (troops sabotage 10 bombers, which are later launched to bomb an enemy city), and the judge says nothing?
Ex: If I say I'm sending 500 men (in 100 man groups yadda yadda yadda) secretly to blow up an enemy city. Public post but saying "It's a secret move, you don't know about it". Some people will attempt to find a legitimate IC reason to have defenders there "Oh they were heading that way anyway, and would have stopped in the city to resupply" "The soldiers came from there and were homesick" "They got a tip off from a traitor". Probably something more thought out than those, but would they still have done so if they hadn't known about the attack?
PMing the moves to the judges provides overly paranoid people like me know that the knowledge will not be acted on.
another question: What if two secret moves conflict (two armies attack each other with secret moves, but both are not there when the attack is made (because they're off attempting to attack the other) or (troops sabotage 10 bombers, which are later launched to bomb an enemy city), and the judge says nothing?
- chrimigules
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Re: Secret Moves
But the problem that happened plenty enough in the last war is that people made secret moves, and then when other people moved through their area, they had no way of knowing and nothing ended up happening.
Secret moves need to be public so that the recwarrers know that when they do something, they have to write that something bad happens to them as a result of it. It's like how we expect people not to godmod, we should expect people to man up and take the hit as if they didn't know it was coming.
Secret moves need to be public so that the recwarrers know that when they do something, they have to write that something bad happens to them as a result of it. It's like how we expect people not to godmod, we should expect people to man up and take the hit as if they didn't know it was coming.
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Re: Secret Moves
I would think first that the judge should respond by saying whether the attack can proceed as planned or not. In the case that the judge is inactive and not responded, then either:But what if the judge is inactive over the time period the secret move takes place? What if they do not receive the message for some unknown reason? If, then the attack happens, and people begin to say that the attack could not have taken place, do they have a base to stand on, or has the judge (through their lack of a reply) approved the attack? If the judge does not have the information needed about someone being attacked, can they assume what relevant defenses are there? Or should they ask the attacked, risking the revelation of the secret move?
1. Attack cannot be made.
2. Ask the defender if the attack would be allowed.
In the latter case, it allows the attacker to continue with their plan. The defender should (but not must) allow this attack to happen if its realistically possible.
Like for instance, in the previous war, the attack that you were trying against Scott's hyperborean troops would not happen as planned simply because of the nature of the hyperborean people themselves. Its like trying to hide the white tall american soldiers amongst a black pygmy population... no matter how good they are, they are simply not going to blend in.
However, if a few special agents were infiltrated, then it would be possible. for example, say you had mentioned in your story line somewhere that you were bringing in a few civilians or special forces from your home place that were fluent in hyperborean and were infact, hyperboreans at some stage in their life. and then used these forces to infiltrate, then that would have been possible. however, it would be nice to keep this size of 'extra' forces to a very low level. like 1 or 2 personnel only. that way, you wouldn't have to cost them in your orbat. at least, not under the honour/story-telling system anyway.
Its not easy to track ships even with satellites. Especially if the ships are pretty widely spread apart. Maybe you can follow just 1 ship if you happen to spot it by chance. Do one thing, download GoogleEarth and run it. Go over to some large port, say Singapore port. Zoom in until you can see a ship or the wake of a ship. Look at how high you are. It takes quite a bit of a zoom in to figure anything such as a ship out. Grab the size of the screen. the breadth and width of these, in kilometers, is the size of image that you'd need to take. compare that to the pixel length on MCS map. and put that on the mcs map. you'll find that you need to take a hell of a lot of images to even spot the first ship.Navy: The argument came up in the war that Navy ships should not/ should be able to make secret moves. Submarines, clearly, are able to do so, there is little argument there. But destroyers, aircraft carriers, cruisers, battleships? In this modern day and age, enemy ships would likely be tracked by any means possible, including satellite, radar (if close enough), sonar, spy planes, etc. Camouflaging an entire war ship is barely plausible, but if someone should want to do it (to help protect against visual detection), should they cost more? Should nations be able to track enemy ships via satellites (though this may be being addressed in another topic, feel free to ignore if already addressed)?
and then you gotta worry about the weather itself, with clouds blocking your view of the waters. if you say you can use thermal, then you'd have to zoom in even more to get a decent change in temperature of the surface system (ie, take more pictures of Micras oceans). and i think the clouds would still cause a problem.
and offcourse, there's the day/night situation whereby during the nights, you can't spot the wake or the ship.
and what if the ship is not moving at all ? the wakes help you a huge lot to spot the ship because you are trying to find a much larger object. but with no wake, the size of the target image is extremely small. just look at GoogleEarth and try spotting ships that aren't moving at all, or have no wakes behind them.
Hackers are out. Its like using nukes. There's nothing stopping one side from hacking entirely into the other side's computers, even though the other side might have computers that would take the real world hackers ages to crack through.Spies: To what extent are nations able to use spies/hackers/etc? If an army is large enough, not every soldier will know everyone else (situation being similar to a college student in a large college knowing every student, faculty member, and maintenance (janitors, computer techs, etc.) on campus by face and name). Should hackers be able to penetrate an enemy nation's computer network to steal computer-stored military information? Should military men know the language of their enemies, to perform a covert operation there? If they don't, should they be able to infiltrate a camp for a lengthy period of time?
Regarding infiltration, small numbers could be allowed. But it would have to be exceptional reasons. you can't simply show up at a base and turn out as a big unit (or squad of members) and expect to get commands from the top brass. The chain of command would ensure against such a thing. However, if a chain of command has been recently broken, or if for some reason, officials in the enemy camp do not know who is who, then it could be allowed. But a small number to start with.
Off course, but these would have to be identified. That is to say, the manner in which these non-stealth crafts are keeping themselves undetected would have to be informed. But the guarantees do not exist on them being undetected at all times.Air: Stealth craft can, but can non-stealth craft move undetected under the right conditions?
Actually, if i remember right from the Jaris War, there were two levels of secret moves. One is a normal secret move wherein you say in the post what the move is and indicate that its a secret move. The opponent can read it and must not use that information to defend themselves (unless they can show from that war itself that they can/are capable of). For instance, say you are attacking my naval ships with your aircrafts. You have 10 fighters, hidden/flying underneath 10 neutral (say Babkhan) aircraft. And on the last minute they fly in separate direction and hit me, thus taking me by surprise. you can post this openly. but i can't reply by saying that i am shooting at the aircrafts (Babkhan in this case) and firing missiles, and say "oh suddenly i saw one fighter in there after shooting the babkhan aircraft and now i am taking defense actions against the fighters"... however, if a similar strategy was employed against me or by allies, i could say that "i am not taking any chances and am thus firing my missiles at the Babkhan aircrafts".... the latter case shows that my character and units are already aware of such a tactic possibly being used by the enemy... however, in the first case, there's no way my unit would ever think of such a possible action.Secret moves used to be done by posting about it and specifically stating in the summary what was a secret move and what wasn't, and people were expected to go by an honor system.
Similarly, I could have posted during the Jasonia war that my secret plan was to attack Toketi. And since no one was expecting that, any move that you would have done that would prohibit me from continuing with my plan (after I said in the post that I am planning on attacking Toketi) would be not allowed, since you'd be using the knowledge to better defend yourself. Maybe not directly, but indirectly by bringing in extra troops, and thus you could say "oh, i got orbated troops in town now. i am defending"... while allowed, the fact that you brought in those troops after i declared my intentions makes them unfair. thus, in these cases, where a player thinks that posting the secret move would influence the decisions/plans of the enemy and yourself, then you are allowed to send the secret move to the judge.
That was what used to be done in some wars.
True. And that is why, if you as an attacker made a secret move against me, and I defended against it, you could take it to the judges. The judges would then see the cases: your secret attack plan, and my reasoning for defending such.. and then make the appropriate judgment.My personal theory (disagree if you will) is that no matter if you're supposed to know about the attack or not, once you know about it, it will factor into your planning, no matter how little. You can't un-know about it.
These aren't legitimate IC reasons. A legitimate IC reason would be "my troops were moving to that city already. I informed of this move openly several posts back." If someone posted the above reasons you suggested against you, then you'd have full right to ask the judge to step in and resolve the matter. And, I personally think that the judge should rule in your favour. I know I would rule in your favour in this case.Ex: If I say I'm sending 500 men (in 100 man groups yadda yadda yadda) secretly to blow up an enemy city. Public post but saying "It's a secret move, you don't know about it". Some people will attempt to find a legitimate IC reason to have defenders there "Oh they were heading that way anyway, and would have stopped in the city to resupply" "The soldiers came from there and were homesick" "They got a tip off from a traitor". Probably something more thought out than those, but would they still have done so if they hadn't known about the attack?
Well, then both end up surprising each other by not finding each other there. That is if the judge is present and says something. If the judge just happens to be inactive at that moment, then we could get the two parties to post their secret actions and the time they sent the post to the judge. This would provide us with the knowledge to make a decision as to who made the first move and whether the second move was possible or not, given the time frame.another question: What if two secret moves conflict (two armies attack each other with secret moves, but both are not there when the attack is made (because they're off attempting to attack the other) or (troops sabotage 10 bombers, which are later launched to bomb an enemy city), and the judge says nothing?
I think that strategic moves should be secret in the sense that they are sent directly to the judge and not posted. Tactical moves that are secret should be openly posted.But the problem that happened plenty enough in the last war is that people made secret moves, and then when other people moved through their area, they had no way of knowing and nothing ended up happening.
Secret moves need to be public so that the recwarrers know that when they do something, they have to write that something bad happens to them as a result of it. It's like how we expect people not to godmod, we should expect people to man up and take the hit as if they didn't know it was coming.
So, using previous war, the Montague's secret actions of moving ships around would be a tactical move and thus, need to be openly posted (though as a secret action). Similarly, the fact that the Toketian submarines were moving back to Toketi to engage the mercenary force would be a tactical move (actually that can be argued both ways). Me attacking Toketi would be a strategic secret move. however, me moving my ships around in different places would be a tactical secret move that would need to be mentioned openly.
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Re: Secret Moves
I don't like option one, because the presence of a judge should not affect people's actions in a war (eg: you should be able to do secret moves even if the judge is absent)extreme007 wrote: I would think first that the judge should respond by saying whether the attack can proceed as planned or not. In the case that the judge is inactive and not responded, then either:
1. Attack cannot be made.
2. Ask the defender if the attack would be allowed.
In the latter case, it allows the attacker to continue with their plan. The defender should (but not must) allow this attack to happen if its realistically possible.
Option two is better, though I am still a little wary of it. How about:
If the judge is not present for a secret move, the move must be Pmed to the attacked. If the attacker and the attacked can not come to a conclusion about the attack, it will be posted (in it's own thread) to be decided upon by a third party chosen by both involved parties. If the judge returns while no decision can be made, the judge has the power to step in and make a decision.
It'll involve cooperation from both parties, but it should work provided both parties are willing to consider the attack.
The numbers do play into this a lot. But it's not just military units, it's civilians and non-military personnel as well. Say the army is stations in a city, defending it, then it would be much easier to infiltrate due to the large civilian population. If the army is on the move, it would be much harder, and fewer spies (if any) would be able to get in. Skin color would be easy to change (especially for those with lighter skin), as there are more dye colors than skin colors. Language would be a little trickier, as the troops would have to know enough of the language to get by, or be in a situation where knowing the language is not needed.extreme007 wrote:Like for instance, in the previous war, the attack that you were trying against Scott's hyperborean troops would not happen as planned simply because of the nature of the hyperborean people themselves. Its like trying to hide the white tall american soldiers amongst a black pygmy population... no matter how good they are, they are simply not going to blend in.
However, if a few special agents were infiltrated, then it would be possible. for example, say you had mentioned in your story line somewhere that you were bringing in a few civilians or special forces from your home place that were fluent in hyperborean and were infact, hyperboreans at some stage in their life. and then used these forces to infiltrate, then that would have been possible. however, it would be nice to keep this size of 'extra' forces to a very low level. like 1 or 2 personnel only. that way, you wouldn't have to cost them in your orbat. at least, not under the honour/story-telling system anyway.
proposed solution: any attempt to infiltrate enemy camps must be pmed to both the judge and the infiltrated, to determine plausibility, and thereby, success rate. The judge has the final say in these decisions. If the judge is lacking, see the proposed above.
But at the same time you have to consider the fact that google earth is civilian equipment, while the military has satellites accurate enough to track a single person (after they find the person once that is). Clouds and nighttime would factor in some, but not too much. Clouds would only briefly make the satellite lose track of the ship, and all it would have to do is monitor the edges of the cloud until the obstruction was no longer in the way. Though we rarely take weather into consideration during recwars, i have yet to see anyone (this past war excepted) factor weather into their planning. As for nighttime, it would make searching much more difficult, but not impossible. If the satellite already has a lock on its target, it should be able to keep a lock on it. I do see your point however, but no good solution.extreme007 wrote:Its not easy to track ships even with satellites. Especially if the ships are pretty widely spread apart. Maybe you can follow just 1 ship if you happen to spot it by chance. Do one thing, download GoogleEarth and run it. Go over to some large port, say Singapore port. Zoom in until you can see a ship or the wake of a ship. Look at how high you are. It takes quite a bit of a zoom in to figure anything such as a ship out. Grab the size of the screen. the breadth and width of these, in kilometers, is the size of image that you'd need to take. compare that to the pixel length on MCS map. and put that on the mcs map. you'll find that you need to take a hell of a lot of images to even spot the first ship.
and then you gotta worry about the weather itself, with clouds blocking your view of the waters. if you say you can use thermal, then you'd have to zoom in even more to get a decent change in temperature of the surface system (ie, take more pictures of Micras oceans). and i think the clouds would still cause a problem.
and offcourse, there's the day/night situation whereby during the nights, you can't spot the wake or the ship.
and what if the ship is not moving at all ? the wakes help you a huge lot to spot the ship because you are trying to find a much larger object. but with no wake, the size of the target image is extremely small. just look at GoogleEarth and try spotting ships that aren't moving at all, or have no wakes behind them.
i think i already addressed a solution to this.extreme007 wrote:Hackers are out. Its like using nukes. There's nothing stopping one side from hacking entirely into the other side's computers, even though the other side might have computers that would take the real world hackers ages to crack through.
Regarding infiltration, small numbers could be allowed. But it would have to be exceptional reasons. you can't simply show up at a base and turn out as a big unit (or squad of members) and expect to get commands from the top brass. The chain of command would ensure against such a thing. However, if a chain of command has been recently broken, or if for some reason, officials in the enemy camp do not know who is who, then it could be allowed. But a small number to start with.
you provided a good example below, plausibility for such to be determined by judge.extreme007 wrote:Off course, but these would have to be identified. That is to say, the manner in which these non-stealth crafts are keeping themselves undetected would have to be informed. But the guarantees do not exist on them being undetected at all times.
extreme007 wrote:Actually, if i remember right from the Jaris War, there were two levels of secret moves. One is a normal secret move wherein you say in the post what the move is and indicate that its a secret move. The opponent can read it and must not use that information to defend themselves (unless they can show from that war itself that they can/are capable of). For instance, say you are attacking my naval ships with your aircrafts. You have 10 fighters, hidden/flying underneath 10 neutral (say Babkhan) aircraft. And on the last minute they fly in separate direction and hit me, thus taking me by surprise. you can post this openly. but i can't reply by saying that i am shooting at the aircrafts (Babkhan in this case) and firing missiles, and say "oh suddenly i saw one fighter in there after shooting the babkhan aircraft and now i am taking defense actions against the fighters"... however, if a similar strategy was employed against me or by allies, i could say that "i am not taking any chances and am thus firing my missiles at the Babkhan aircrafts".... the latter case shows that my character and units are already aware of such a tactic possibly being used by the enemy... however, in the first case, there's no way my unit would ever think of such a possible action.
Similarly, I could have posted during the Jasonia war that my secret plan was to attack Toketi. And since no one was expecting that, any move that you would have done that would prohibit me from continuing with my plan (after I said in the post that I am planning on attacking Toketi) would be not allowed, since you'd be using the knowledge to better defend yourself. Maybe not directly, but indirectly by bringing in extra troops, and thus you could say "oh, i got orbated troops in town now. i am defending"... while allowed, the fact that you brought in those troops after i declared my intentions makes them unfair. thus, in these cases, where a player thinks that posting the secret move would influence the decisions/plans of the enemy and yourself, then you are allowed to send the secret move to the judge.
That was what used to be done in some wars.
extreme007 wrote:True. And that is why, if you as an attacker made a secret move against me, and I defended against it, you could take it to the judges. The judges would then see the cases: your secret attack plan, and my reasoning for defending such.. and then make the appropriate judgment.
extreme007 wrote:These aren't legitimate IC reasons. A legitimate IC reason would be "my troops were moving to that city already. I informed of this move openly several posts back." If someone posted the above reasons you suggested against you, then you'd have full right to ask the judge to step in and resolve the matter. And, I personally think that the judge should rule in your favour. I know I would rule in your favour in this case.
extreme007 wrote:Well, then both end up surprising each other by not finding each other there. That is if the judge is present and says something. If the judge just happens to be inactive at that moment, then we could get the two parties to post their secret actions and the time they sent the post to the judge. This would provide us with the knowledge to make a decision as to who made the first move and whether the second move was possible or not, given the time frame.
extreme007 wrote:I think that strategic moves should be secret in the sense that they are sent directly to the judge and not posted. Tactical moves that are secret should be openly posted.
extreme007 wrote:So, using previous war, the Montague's secret actions of moving ships around would be a tactical move and thus, need to be openly posted (though as a secret action). Similarly, the fact that the Toketian submarines were moving back to Toketi to engage the mercenary force would be a tactical move (actually that can be argued both ways). Me attacking Toketi would be a strategic secret move. however, me moving my ships around in different places would be a tactical secret move that would need to be mentioned openly.
Alright proposed amendment for secret moves:
Tactical secret moves must be posted publicly, with a large note saying that they are secret. Tactical moves are moves that affect only your or an ally's troops, and in no way are immediately detrimental to your enemy. This post may only contain the movement and not the reasons behind the movement. Ex: building a secret airfield, moving from point A to B [provided B is not in an enemy camp], reinforcing an ally's army.
Strategic secret movements may be Pmed to a judge (or appropriate party, if judge is unavailable). Strategic moves are defined as moves that are detrimental to enemy troops. Ex: infiltrating an enemy base, sabotauging vehicles.
but what should laying minefields or setting up an ambush fall under? If posted, they could be avoided. If Pmed, they could be forgotten about. They are not immediately detrimental to either army, but will be if walked into.
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Re: Secret Moves
I don't have much time at the moment to contribute greatly to this debate but ANY secret move would be detrimental to enemy forces. Not knowing something that the enemy is doing is by nature detrimental to your position.
The weather thing though has me thinking. Will post a suggestion in a separate thread.
The weather thing though has me thinking. Will post a suggestion in a separate thread.
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- chrimigules
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Re: Secret Moves
Extreme, your distinction between strategic and tactical, I think something to that effect might be a good system to adopt.
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Re: Secret Moves
in reply to Monty's comment:
By detrimental, I meant inflicting damages or something that affects the enemy directly. Moving your troops around wouldn't necessarily affect your enemy (especially if my land troops were moving inland, and your navy was off battling an ally, or something along those lines.)
I tried to clear the issue up with the examples, but i think there are better ones to be had.
By detrimental, I meant inflicting damages or something that affects the enemy directly. Moving your troops around wouldn't necessarily affect your enemy (especially if my land troops were moving inland, and your navy was off battling an ally, or something along those lines.)
I tried to clear the issue up with the examples, but i think there are better ones to be had.
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Re: Secret Moves
That is what I meant as well, except without getting any third parties. Chances are, when the discussion is taking place between the attacker and defender, then their allies are likely to give their input as well.Option two is better, though I am still a little wary of it. How about:
If the judge is not present for a secret move, the move must be Pmed to the attacked. If the attacker and the attacked can not come to a conclusion about the attack, it will be posted (in it's own thread) to be decided upon by a third party chosen by both involved parties. If the judge returns while no decision can be made, the judge has the power to step in and make a decision.
It'll involve cooperation from both parties, but it should work provided both parties are willing to consider the attack.
Yes, but you still gotta find that one person first ! And that requires intelligence from other sources, which in case of recwars isn't available. You wouldn't know where my ships are at sea. Once you find a ship, then you'd have to fix one satellite on that ship to keep tracking it.But at the same time you have to consider the fact that google earth is civilian equipment, while the military has satellites accurate enough to track a single person (after they find the person once that is).
Actually, like monty said, any secret moves are going to affect the enemy directly. That is why it is a secret move. Even his move in the Jasonia war of moving his ships around affected the enemy, in this case the Antican ships, by them not knowing where he was.Tactical secret moves must be posted publicly, with a large note saying that they are secret. Tactical moves are moves that affect only your or an ally's troops, and in no way are immediately detrimental to your enemy. This post may only contain the movement and not the reasons behind the movement. Ex: building a secret airfield, moving from point A to B [provided B is not in an enemy camp], reinforcing an ally's army.
Strategic secret movements may be Pmed to a judge (or appropriate party, if judge is unavailable). Strategic moves are defined as moves that are detrimental to enemy troops. Ex: infiltrating an enemy base, sabotauging vehicles.
Thus, tactical moves I would classify as those wherein the defender is using the knowledge of the attacker's secret intentions (because the attacker posted it) to better defend themselves or worsen their damages, and can easily be caught doing so. That is to say, any excuses to defend against the inbound secret attack would be easily identifiable.
Strategic moves are those wherein the defender cannot be easily caught using the knowledge. Thus, it would be hard for the judge/third parties to determine if the defender used the knowledge to better defend themselves or whether it was part of the defender's plan. In such a case, if the attacker feels that the defender would be able to get away easily or a high chance of defender using the knowledge and getting away easily, then they may choose to not post it and send it to a judge directly.
The other option is to send the secret moves to the judges directly and at the same time posting in the post that "Secret action pmed to judge". The judge then decides whether the post should be made publicly or not. If the judge decides yes, then they inform the attacker to post it. If the judge feels the defender might use the knowledge, then the judge doesn't ask the attacker to post it.
- chrimigules
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Re: Secret Moves
What would have been really useful is if he posted his secret moves, and... well, in the example where he fired a spread of cruise missiles so that they came in from the north while his unit was located west from my position... it would've been helpful if there were a secret moves/status notice at the bottom of his post stating that while the missiles were coming from the north and it was made to appear that Monty's unit was north of me, he was, in fact, west of me.Even his move in the Jasonia war of moving his ships around affected the enemy, in this case the Antican ships, by them not knowing where he was.
Without that kind of a note, in my response post I ended up mistakenly locating him north of me. If that note was there, I would have spent my time searching north of me and would have not found anything.
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Re: Secret Moves
I don't have time to read this whole thread but I'll just say this:
In the Jasonian war there was something in the charter about the judge approving secret moves and secret malefactor moves etc, but very few people appeared to have read it. After the war one of the amendments was to keep that in, but word it more strongly/obviously. So the quoted passage won't be quite as was fought under in the Jasonian war, but as it was intended to be fought under, if that makes sense ...
In the Jasonian war there was something in the charter about the judge approving secret moves and secret malefactor moves etc, but very few people appeared to have read it. After the war one of the amendments was to keep that in, but word it more strongly/obviously. So the quoted passage won't be quite as was fought under in the Jasonian war, but as it was intended to be fought under, if that makes sense ...
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Secret Moves
True, but in that case the final decision should come from the two combatants, or the judge.That is what I meant as well, except without getting any third parties. Chances are, when the discussion is taking place between the attacker and defender, then their allies are likely to give their input as well.
True. I'm not quite sure what to do about this , since there are clearly two sides of the debate, but no obvious middle ground.Yes, but you still gotta find that one person first ! And that requires intelligence from other sources, which in case of recwars isn't available. You wouldn't know where my ships are at sea. Once you find a ship, then you'd have to fix one satellite on that ship to keep tracking it.
I like those definitions better. As for posting when you Pm a secret move to the judge, im not sure i like that. If when you post that you're making a secret move, someone could guess what your move is and counteract it, and...Actually, like monty said, any secret moves are going to affect the enemy directly. That is why it is a secret move. Even his move in the Jasonia war of moving his ships around affected the enemy, in this case the Antican ships, by them not knowing where he was.
Thus, tactical moves I would classify as those wherein the defender is using the knowledge of the attacker's secret intentions (because the attacker posted it) to better defend themselves or worsen their damages, and can easily be caught doing so. That is to say, any excuses to defend against the inbound secret attack would be easily identifiable.
Strategic moves are those wherein the defender cannot be easily caught using the knowledge. Thus, it would be hard for the judge/third parties to determine if the defender used the knowledge to better defend themselves or whether it was part of the defender's plan. In such a case, if the attacker feels that the defender would be able to get away easily or a high chance of defender using the knowledge and getting away easily, then they may choose to not post it and send it to a judge directly.
The other option is to send the secret moves to the judges directly and at the same time posting in the post that "Secret action pmed to judge". The judge then decides whether the post should be made publicly or not. If the judge decides yes, then they inform the attacker to post it. If the judge feels the defender might use the knowledge, then the judge doesn't ask the attacker to post it.
actually that adds another level of realism to it. Mind-change- I like it.
- chrimigules
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Re: Secret Moves
Sometimes, people might have a good reason for knowing that a "secret move" is taking place. They might be actively monitoring the area that the secret move is taking place in, for example.
Коля лает «гав-гав».
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Re: Secret Moves
That's obviously the judges job to alert them, then.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander