Random thoughts..
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Re: Random thoughts..
I thought its goal was just having a nice map to give the people the opportunity to unite and do stuff...?Ryan wrote:The MCS was founded as a means to unite people of this hobby on a common ground
Honoured Servant of the Jingdaoese Heavenly Light and the Kaiseress of Shireroth
Re: Random thoughts..
Somehow the MCS has done a good job in staying out of domestic affairs and keeping to the mapping. It works out well for the MCS due to the fact that they don't hurt anyone. But it appears that this was to be changed when it became the as-of-yet unnamed place.
I feel something well established would do the sector a bit of good, something that was like MNN. Microhub tried to take over but it was a flop. What made that side of the hobby interesting was that it (theoretically) was there for all aspects of the Micronation hobby. MNN was great for articles on the hobby and other things like that. I can't really remember who was there most of the time, but it was more a helpful tool for building a micronation and I remember going there rather than the MCS in the early days and other nations going there too. It was the side of the hobby which the MCS didn't have, and it wasn't a bad thing! I think Microhub was too small, not easy to find and really needed to be promoted to make it the first place new micronationalists would find. That is why I think the OAM developed in the way it did; because they found microwiki and started their nations there and eventually that spilled into a new forum, rather than MNN having articles and a forum.
I wish I had web development skills. Everyone can make fancy programs, websites and images and all I can do is just try to use words and ideas.
I feel something well established would do the sector a bit of good, something that was like MNN. Microhub tried to take over but it was a flop. What made that side of the hobby interesting was that it (theoretically) was there for all aspects of the Micronation hobby. MNN was great for articles on the hobby and other things like that. I can't really remember who was there most of the time, but it was more a helpful tool for building a micronation and I remember going there rather than the MCS in the early days and other nations going there too. It was the side of the hobby which the MCS didn't have, and it wasn't a bad thing! I think Microhub was too small, not easy to find and really needed to be promoted to make it the first place new micronationalists would find. That is why I think the OAM developed in the way it did; because they found microwiki and started their nations there and eventually that spilled into a new forum, rather than MNN having articles and a forum.
I wish I had web development skills. Everyone can make fancy programs, websites and images and all I can do is just try to use words and ideas.
- Guido Zambelis
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Re: Random thoughts..
The most obvious step forward, as it appears to me, is to try and unite all aspects of the community, once again, in some kind of hub. When we last tried this, the OAM wasn't as big as it now is (or it was but we didn't know about it), but I think the goodwill they have shown (and I hope we have reciprocated) means that such an endeavour might now be a real possibility.
Obviously, we don't want in any way to infringe on the running of the OAM or the MCS. As we've discussed before, the two are very different beasts. Indeed, the OAM sector is somewhere between secessionism and simulationism, and it's important that we don't forget that. But are there still massive advantages to coming together (even if we still keep separate forums for the MCS and OAM, which I think we probably will do)? Yes.
Obviously, we don't want in any way to infringe on the running of the OAM or the MCS. As we've discussed before, the two are very different beasts. Indeed, the OAM sector is somewhere between secessionism and simulationism, and it's important that we don't forget that. But are there still massive advantages to coming together (even if we still keep separate forums for the MCS and OAM, which I think we probably will do)? Yes.
Re: Random thoughts..
Whilst in principle the creation of an entire new community hub is a good idea I fear we'd be trying to run before we could walk if we did that. We should try and start small and work with what we've got, which at the moment is a ready made intermicronational hub in the form of the MCS, the only problem with which is that it doesn't cut the mustard with publicising the hobby to the wider internet.
Our first step should be to rehaul the MCS forums not in terms of the MCS as an organisation but in terms of their presentation. A more professional forum would be a starting place for greater things; and I feel activity around here is fluctuating enough already, let alone if we decide to create another MNN style hub which would take activity away from the MCS. Creating an entirely new community hub is just too much work for what we've got at the moment- I think the MCS should create a forum called the 'Micran Sector' or 'Micran-nations' or something and the MCS should be a component of that.
Our first step should be to rehaul the MCS forums not in terms of the MCS as an organisation but in terms of their presentation. A more professional forum would be a starting place for greater things; and I feel activity around here is fluctuating enough already, let alone if we decide to create another MNN style hub which would take activity away from the MCS. Creating an entirely new community hub is just too much work for what we've got at the moment- I think the MCS should create a forum called the 'Micran Sector' or 'Micran-nations' or something and the MCS should be a component of that.
- Guido Zambelis
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Re: Random thoughts..
As long as it's at micras.org then nothing will change. If the OAM opened a "general micronational" forum on their site, I wouldn't feel strongly that I should go there, because it would still be in the domain of the OAM (regardless of how right or wrong such a feeling would be, it would still be). We need a neutral platform.
You suggest, as ever, trying to separate sectors. God knows why, because the problem is that sectorisation is badly affecting the hobby. We're suffering from lack of activity, the OAM sector is suffering from lack of experience, ideas and opportunities that can be gained from wider participation with the hobby as a whole (and I'd argue that we suffer from those things too). The last thing we want to do is to create separate forums for the "Micras sector". That would be quite absurd.
You suggest, as ever, trying to separate sectors. God knows why, because the problem is that sectorisation is badly affecting the hobby. We're suffering from lack of activity, the OAM sector is suffering from lack of experience, ideas and opportunities that can be gained from wider participation with the hobby as a whole (and I'd argue that we suffer from those things too). The last thing we want to do is to create separate forums for the "Micras sector". That would be quite absurd.
Re: Random thoughts..
I want to re-iterate the point I make everytime a discussion comes up like this. Before the argument dies, start to implement it. Everytime something like this comes up the discussion dies and is left to rot. I know it is early days, but if there is consensus then there must be some sort of plan to actually start something.
I think we agree that we need to improve aspects of the MCS, maybe we should start another thread suggesting what should be reformed. I already tried to have a contact thread in the Cod's Leg. Just sayin'. This community is great for discussing and never actually implementing.
I think we agree that we need to improve aspects of the MCS, maybe we should start another thread suggesting what should be reformed. I already tried to have a contact thread in the Cod's Leg. Just sayin'. This community is great for discussing and never actually implementing.
Re: Random thoughts..
Here's what I suggest:
1. The MCS forum needs to be overhauled entirely to become a host for the MCS, not vice-versa. Then it can be expanded to host a media conference center, and whatever other aspects we deem beneficial to the overall hobby/community.
2. The micras.org domain, while I don't feel it is as pressing an issue as Guido does, I think we can let the registration on this lapse and simply purchase a new, neutral domain (like microcom.org or something).
3. The MCS and the administration of this forum need to be separated since they are distinct entities; regardless if they're hosted on the same site. We should have a staff of people who attend to the intermicronational moderation of the forum, and then individual staffs for the other hosted organizations, including MCS, Foundation, MAS, etc, etc. Right now everything is blurred together and both apathetic and confusing as hell.
4. The main website needs to become a portal to several micronational services; ForumList, the MCS, a news center, a WikiList, and whatever else we can fit in that would be helpful to the community. I think between the lot of us we can come up with a design that can service the community's needs.
5. A general petition should be collected to force the MCS council to concede that it is no longer meeting the needs of the community and needs to step aside in favor of a Cartographical Convention that will evaluate and draft a new set of guidelines for the administration of the organization.
I believe this would be an excellent start in the right direction.
1. The MCS forum needs to be overhauled entirely to become a host for the MCS, not vice-versa. Then it can be expanded to host a media conference center, and whatever other aspects we deem beneficial to the overall hobby/community.
2. The micras.org domain, while I don't feel it is as pressing an issue as Guido does, I think we can let the registration on this lapse and simply purchase a new, neutral domain (like microcom.org or something).
3. The MCS and the administration of this forum need to be separated since they are distinct entities; regardless if they're hosted on the same site. We should have a staff of people who attend to the intermicronational moderation of the forum, and then individual staffs for the other hosted organizations, including MCS, Foundation, MAS, etc, etc. Right now everything is blurred together and both apathetic and confusing as hell.
4. The main website needs to become a portal to several micronational services; ForumList, the MCS, a news center, a WikiList, and whatever else we can fit in that would be helpful to the community. I think between the lot of us we can come up with a design that can service the community's needs.
5. A general petition should be collected to force the MCS council to concede that it is no longer meeting the needs of the community and needs to step aside in favor of a Cartographical Convention that will evaluate and draft a new set of guidelines for the administration of the organization.
I believe this would be an excellent start in the right direction.
- Guido Zambelis
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Re: Random thoughts..
I agree with 1-4 (though my point wasn't specifically about the domain, but rather the whole place). I can't say I agree with 5; I think the membership of the council should be overhauled, but I don't think it's "no longer meeting the needs of the community". Perhaps you could explain why you think this?
Re: Random thoughts..
I'd agree that the council wasn't doing very well recently compared to how it managed to get along a while ago. But I don't really agree with the solution.
Re: Random thoughts..
While I agree in principle with what Ryan is suggesting, I worry about the mobilization and coordination of such an effort, and feel that the attitude here (of this forum and/or of the council) is detrimental towards meaningful progress. I believe in essence, short of Craitman's frequent updates of the map, nothing meaningful or worth saving occurs here. Crait is an annoying and condescending person to talk to, but I gotta give him props for the effort and the persistence. Basically everything else can go. This forum has totally failed to become a hub, partially because the people that run this place really don't give a frick, and partially because our sector has degenerated to the point where we don't find a hub particularly useful.
I'm taking a very "if you build it, they will come" approach right now, which is slowly but meaningfully being manifested in the Bastion Union discussions. I don't find these sorts of talks ever come to useful ends - if we want something done, we have to do it with near heedless regard of what other people nitpick. Bastion Union not exactly my plan to save the hobby and all that rot, but it should be a nice enough home for a while. And if it takes on new meaning as a hub someday, well, that's great.
I'm taking a very "if you build it, they will come" approach right now, which is slowly but meaningfully being manifested in the Bastion Union discussions. I don't find these sorts of talks ever come to useful ends - if we want something done, we have to do it with near heedless regard of what other people nitpick. Bastion Union not exactly my plan to save the hobby and all that rot, but it should be a nice enough home for a while. And if it takes on new meaning as a hub someday, well, that's great.
Re: Random thoughts..
I'm not starting on you SaiKar when I say what you say is contradictory, it's merely just asking what you meant. They built a hub here and the leadership doesn't care, yet you still take a "if you build it they will come" attitude.
I think Artz addressed the problem with this forum at the start, and Saikar partly addressed it there. The Hub isn't used because people currently don't really have the desire for a hub. The most active and successful parts of the community are and have always been where people are genuinely friends.
Frankly, we're all too serious here. It seems to me that we come here for a bit and settle disputes and complain and then we go back to our nations. I think there is an inherent problem in the community as a whole rather than taking the leadership of it as a major part of the problem. The community is looking out for its own interests too much. I remember a time where some people would join forums and get involved in a micronation to merely annex it. It is a part of life, yes, but it is also a sad reflection on what the community has become.
I send a message to the leadership which I think is the ultimate principle of leadership and how I think Hamland has managed to keep going with good activity despite a smaller number of members. Every leader must ask themselves "what am I actually doing?". If you don't understand what you or your nation exists to achieve then you shall achieve nothing. If you know what you want and know where you are heading then everything should fall into place so long as you act upon it. It takes a true leader to continue pursuing goal after goal and pushing their community. That is the part I agree with SaiKar on. What exactly is the MCS here to do? If it's just for maps then it is doing the job sufficiently well (although inactively). If it is to create a community then I see very little drive to do so.
It is up to Craitman and the other council members to come up with ideas and throw them to us to chew over and improve. Then it is up to Craitman and the council to properly alter these things. However, if people want to set up an alternative hub for the benefit of the community, it is up to someone to show a bit of leadership and set it up and promote it and let us all help improve it. I had an idea for Microworld a while back but I never managed to implement it due to the fact I am a luddite compared to most of you.
I think Artz addressed the problem with this forum at the start, and Saikar partly addressed it there. The Hub isn't used because people currently don't really have the desire for a hub. The most active and successful parts of the community are and have always been where people are genuinely friends.
Frankly, we're all too serious here. It seems to me that we come here for a bit and settle disputes and complain and then we go back to our nations. I think there is an inherent problem in the community as a whole rather than taking the leadership of it as a major part of the problem. The community is looking out for its own interests too much. I remember a time where some people would join forums and get involved in a micronation to merely annex it. It is a part of life, yes, but it is also a sad reflection on what the community has become.
I send a message to the leadership which I think is the ultimate principle of leadership and how I think Hamland has managed to keep going with good activity despite a smaller number of members. Every leader must ask themselves "what am I actually doing?". If you don't understand what you or your nation exists to achieve then you shall achieve nothing. If you know what you want and know where you are heading then everything should fall into place so long as you act upon it. It takes a true leader to continue pursuing goal after goal and pushing their community. That is the part I agree with SaiKar on. What exactly is the MCS here to do? If it's just for maps then it is doing the job sufficiently well (although inactively). If it is to create a community then I see very little drive to do so.
It is up to Craitman and the other council members to come up with ideas and throw them to us to chew over and improve. Then it is up to Craitman and the council to properly alter these things. However, if people want to set up an alternative hub for the benefit of the community, it is up to someone to show a bit of leadership and set it up and promote it and let us all help improve it. I had an idea for Microworld a while back but I never managed to implement it due to the fact I am a luddite compared to most of you.
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Re: Random thoughts..
YES YES YES. If you want something to happen we need to do something and not just talk about and it, and absolutely not just get caught up in working out what we will name it.Lewis wrote:I want to re-iterate the point I make everytime a discussion comes up like this. Before the argument dies, start to implement it. Everytime something like this comes up the discussion dies and is left to rot. I know it is early days, but if there is consensus then there must be some sort of plan to actually start something.
Also, Ryan, agreeing with 1-4, though it should involve some degree of respectfully asking the current council to agree to a new purpose for this forum. Because let's face it - we're talking about using this forum because all the Micran guys are here already, and we want the MCS hosted on any new hub. It would be nice to not create enemies before we start.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
Re: Random thoughts..
Before I address any of these replies, let me first say that this is not a personal dig at Craitman or any of the other council members. They have provided us with an invaluable service for a long time now, and I do not wish to belittle that or show disrespect. But I do feel that the current council is maintaining a stranglehold on the productivity of this particular community. I have voiced my concern over this several times now, and seemingly on deaf ears.
Referencing my above statement, I feel that I am left with no alternative, and that the best way to convince the council to embrace change is to establish some sort of moratorium amongst the MCS' members. A petition seems the most straightforward route to achieving this, and is (personally) far better than simply trudging off and forming another cartography society like what happened with the GSO. That would be far more detrimental and sectarian for the community, which is not what I am trying to do here. I know my words sound harsh, but that is not the intent. I simply want the council to pay attention to the members of this community, and to respect a majority decision even if they are against it in opinion. Insofar as events have occurred, the council has often dismissed public opinion rather casually, and this is something that I feel is truly wrong for the MCS to be doing.Guido Zambelis wrote:I agree with 1-4 (though my point wasn't specifically about the domain, but rather the whole place). I can't say I agree with 5; I think the membership of the council should be overhauled, but I don't think it's "no longer meeting the needs of the community". Perhaps you could explain why you think this?
Please be specific. Ok, so you don't like my proposal. What's your plan then?Lewis wrote:I'd agree that the council wasn't doing very well recently compared to how it managed to get along a while ago. But I don't really agree with the solution.
The MCS already is a community. That it has been allowed to degenerate into a loose collection of members who have no interaction is partially the fault of the administration, and also partially the fault of the way micronations have evolved in recent years. But your last paragraph sums up a good part of the problem. The council is doing nothing, and has done nothing for a good long time. Most of its members can't even be bothered to show up and vote. Yet the councilors cling to their positions and refuse to allow more proactive members of this community succeed them. Until that changes, nothing here will improve. And I am not in favor of setting up another hub - we're already spread thin as it is, and there is nothing here that can't be fixed by an overhaul.Lewis wrote:I'm not starting on you SaiKar when I say what you say is contradictory, it's merely just asking what you meant. They built a hub here and the leadership doesn't care, yet you still take a "if you build it they will come" attitude.
I think Artz addressed the problem with this forum at the start, and Saikar partly addressed it there. The Hub isn't used because people currently don't really have the desire for a hub. The most active and successful parts of the community are and have always been where people are genuinely friends.
Frankly, we're all too serious here. It seems to me that we come here for a bit and settle disputes and complain and then we go back to our nations. I think there is an inherent problem in the community as a whole rather than taking the leadership of it as a major part of the problem. The community is looking out for its own interests too much. I remember a time where some people would join forums and get involved in a micronation to merely annex it. It is a part of life, yes, but it is also a sad reflection on what the community has become.
I send a message to the leadership which I think is the ultimate principle of leadership and how I think Hamland has managed to keep going with good activity despite a smaller number of members. Every leader must ask themselves "what am I actually doing?". If you don't understand what you or your nation exists to achieve then you shall achieve nothing. If you know what you want and know where you are heading then everything should fall into place so long as you act upon it. It takes a true leader to continue pursuing goal after goal and pushing their community. That is the part I agree with SaiKar on. What exactly is the MCS here to do? If it's just for maps then it is doing the job sufficiently well (although inactively). If it is to create a community then I see very little drive to do so.
It is up to Craitman and the other council members to come up with ideas and throw them to us to chew over and improve. Then it is up to Craitman and the council to properly alter these things. However, if people want to set up an alternative hub for the benefit of the community, it is up to someone to show a bit of leadership and set it up and promote it and let us all help improve it. I had an idea for Microworld a while back but I never managed to implement it due to the fact I am a luddite compared to most of you.
Re: Random thoughts..
On my criticism, I agree on 1-4. It seemed like a structural overhaul of the administration, which I don't think is neccesary. Pretty much what the others have said. But yeah, the rest is alright.
I really wish I could build something and not seem to be moaning about doing nothing and doing nothing. I really am hopeless at setting up wesbite unless you want it to be freewebs with a proboard
I really wish I could build something and not seem to be moaning about doing nothing and doing nothing. I really am hopeless at setting up wesbite unless you want it to be freewebs with a proboard
Re: Random thoughts..
I think I carry some weight here in regards to experience dealing with the danger and upset of the split, specifically in regards to the MCS/GSO experience.
There are two issues here and two discussions. One is about a micronational hub, which the MCS is fundamentally not. The second is the cartographic society, which this is. The two are separate and distinct and can/should not have dominion over the other, they really need to be two separately managed entities, one for the community as a whole irrespective of map or location (Gotzborg is barred from getting on MCS unfortunately unless we discard our own personal maps, which sadly eliminates us from dealing with many nations whom we consider friends and future friends.) All of what Ryan says just has to be done, I suggest and recommend a complete separation of cartographic vs sector community administration, otherwise we are going to continue to have to deal with a segmentation in what I feel used to be a much more dynamic and vibrant micronational sector.
From my experience it makes it a challenge to be a part of the 'community' when the community isn't truly the whole you know what I mean. I may not be able to have a link to the Micran world, but I still seek to establish and build relationships with nations on the MCS map, and running a pseudo-hub joined with the MCS together limits our interactions.
Finally, let me highlight that I in no way have anything against the MCS or anyone, my opinion is simply that there needs to be a proper separation between interests in order to best avoid potential conflict of interests, possible favoritism and charges of elitism.
There are two issues here and two discussions. One is about a micronational hub, which the MCS is fundamentally not. The second is the cartographic society, which this is. The two are separate and distinct and can/should not have dominion over the other, they really need to be two separately managed entities, one for the community as a whole irrespective of map or location (Gotzborg is barred from getting on MCS unfortunately unless we discard our own personal maps, which sadly eliminates us from dealing with many nations whom we consider friends and future friends.) All of what Ryan says just has to be done, I suggest and recommend a complete separation of cartographic vs sector community administration, otherwise we are going to continue to have to deal with a segmentation in what I feel used to be a much more dynamic and vibrant micronational sector.
From my experience it makes it a challenge to be a part of the 'community' when the community isn't truly the whole you know what I mean. I may not be able to have a link to the Micran world, but I still seek to establish and build relationships with nations on the MCS map, and running a pseudo-hub joined with the MCS together limits our interactions.
Finally, let me highlight that I in no way have anything against the MCS or anyone, my opinion is simply that there needs to be a proper separation between interests in order to best avoid potential conflict of interests, possible favoritism and charges of elitism.
HRM August Charles II,
King of Gotzborg
King of Gotzborg