Any interest or ideas on a new MN project?
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- Oscar Direzione
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Re: Any interest or ideas on a new MN project?
Ditto.Craitman wrote: S'either that or people want to start proper nations and not just be clumped together with other sub-subforums on the Bastion board?
Plus, Oscland is hardly new.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
The Kingdom of Oscland
The Kingdom of Oscland
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Re: Any interest or ideas on a new MN project?
Scott's point was a purely practical one. If you start/restart your nations and get several active citizens, that's awesome! However, empirically I've found that nations who start as a single founder and post on the hub "I'm starting/restarting X, come and join me as citizens!" rarely get very far. There are exceptions - Normark is the one that springs most easily to mind - but they are few, and often the ones you think of weren't actually started by one person, they were started by several co-founders (eg Ashkenatza or Nelaga). So if you don't have a brilliant recruitment plan, and you're going to end up a one or two man nation, why not start as a one or two man nation in a place designed for one or two men nations, with a bunch of other one or two man nations to interact with?
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
Re: Any interest or ideas on a new MN project?
Proper nation = one-man nation on a separate forum that remains empty because people won't bother to register or check in often?Craitman wrote:S'either that or people want to start proper nations and not just be clumped together with other sub-subforums on the Bastion board?
How this hobby has fallen.
In every "golden age" of this hobby, the most active, thriving micronations have been tightly connected together. The ancient Apollo days had a huged shared citizen bases and EzBoard account hopping was simple. Baracao, Menelmacar, Babkha, and Shireroth were four VERY different nations, yet scarcely anything could happen in any of the four without it being news in the other three within hours. In more recent times, Shireroth, Antica, Gralus, and Nelaga, all four very independent, were still part of a close cluster, and news from any of the four was likely to make it on an Antican Roundtable.
Newcomers trying to start new nations almost always try it go it alone and almost always fail to attract significant citizen bases. I see things like "Oh I'd like to see a far-eastern themed nation" like the Taesong this thread started with, and I understand the mentality, but we're not just trying to create concepts here; we're trying to create communities. Come up with some asian graphics and laws and... then what? Then you have to keep the thing running, which is always easier sand than done.
I know why people dislike Bastion. I know what they fear would happen if they got involved. They're legitimate concerns on certain levels. Standing around watching independent nations die isn't much of a plan of action either, yet that's the alternative I've seen proposed.
Andreas explained it more reasonably than me, of course, but that's to be expected from him and me by now.
Last edited by SaiKar on Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Any interest or ideas on a new MN project?
Well, not everyone wants in on Archipelago, clearly...
EDIT: In response to SaiKar's:
I don't dislike Bastion in the slightest, up until about a (rather busy) week ago, I was there every day and I've got an Archipelago project, but I can see where people are coming from if they don't want to join-up for it, which is why I pointed-out the tendencies to want to have an independently-hosted nation rather than a smaller project within just a subforum elsewhere
EDIT: In response to SaiKar's:
I don't dislike Bastion in the slightest, up until about a (rather busy) week ago, I was there every day and I've got an Archipelago project, but I can see where people are coming from if they don't want to join-up for it, which is why I pointed-out the tendencies to want to have an independently-hosted nation rather than a smaller project within just a subforum elsewhere
- Scott Alexander
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Re: Any interest or ideas on a new MN project?
I don't want to tell anyone they can't start their own micronation or tell them how they should do it or say they have to meet my standards.
In the past year, twenty-eight new countries have joined this community*. That's about a new country every thirteen days. How many of those countries have survived? Made an impact? Of the 382 nations on Spangle's forum list, only thirty-ish have even a single post per day on their forums, and many/most of those are five to ten year old countries which were founded with an already-devoted group of citizens (eg Antica started in a high school class and only later came online).
I think people start micronations because they have an idea for a country that they want to develop with micronationalist friends. But starting a micronation just isn't a great way to do that. Most micronations never reach any kind of potential because they don't have many citizens and the citizens they do have aren't active, and all they can do is write constitutions which don't get used and assign titles to people who don't use them. I don't think this is a controversial opinion, although as Harvey points out, the less people have been exposed to the older really big micronations like Gralus and Lovely and Babkha the more they might be willing to accept this as par for the course.
No one at Archipelago has any solution to this problem, and if what you really want is to build a micronation, then I'm wasting your time and all we can do is wish you luck. As Craitman says, the whole Archipelago idea isn't for everyone. But if on reflection you don't really want to start a micronation, you just want to pursue an interesting idea for a fictional country with micronationalists, then Archipelago has been trying to create a place where you can do this a little more rewardingly than in the standard micronation-building way. And I want to make sure people do realize that this other option exists and has been moderately successful.
Harvey and Andreas explained it more concisely than I, of course, but that's to be expected from them and me by now.
Also, can I ask how many people are avoiding Archipelago just because it's on Bastion? If the numbers are high enough, that might be a decent argument for moving it to its own board.
*source: new claims in the Claims section, plus announcements of "hi we're a new country" in the news/discussion section. Eleven of those countries also had a presence in the MicroWiki sector; I don't know enough about them to distinguish established MW countries from new countries that introduced themselves to MW and MCS at the same time.
In the past year, twenty-eight new countries have joined this community*. That's about a new country every thirteen days. How many of those countries have survived? Made an impact? Of the 382 nations on Spangle's forum list, only thirty-ish have even a single post per day on their forums, and many/most of those are five to ten year old countries which were founded with an already-devoted group of citizens (eg Antica started in a high school class and only later came online).
I think people start micronations because they have an idea for a country that they want to develop with micronationalist friends. But starting a micronation just isn't a great way to do that. Most micronations never reach any kind of potential because they don't have many citizens and the citizens they do have aren't active, and all they can do is write constitutions which don't get used and assign titles to people who don't use them. I don't think this is a controversial opinion, although as Harvey points out, the less people have been exposed to the older really big micronations like Gralus and Lovely and Babkha the more they might be willing to accept this as par for the course.
No one at Archipelago has any solution to this problem, and if what you really want is to build a micronation, then I'm wasting your time and all we can do is wish you luck. As Craitman says, the whole Archipelago idea isn't for everyone. But if on reflection you don't really want to start a micronation, you just want to pursue an interesting idea for a fictional country with micronationalists, then Archipelago has been trying to create a place where you can do this a little more rewardingly than in the standard micronation-building way. And I want to make sure people do realize that this other option exists and has been moderately successful.
Harvey and Andreas explained it more concisely than I, of course, but that's to be expected from them and me by now.
Also, can I ask how many people are avoiding Archipelago just because it's on Bastion? If the numbers are high enough, that might be a decent argument for moving it to its own board.
*source: new claims in the Claims section, plus announcements of "hi we're a new country" in the news/discussion section. Eleven of those countries also had a presence in the MicroWiki sector; I don't know enough about them to distinguish established MW countries from new countries that introduced themselves to MW and MCS at the same time.
Last edited by Scott Alexander on Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Scott Alexander | Autokrator of Archipelago (What is Archipelago?)
Illustrious Founder of the MCS, and sometime Special Cartographer
Illustrious Founder of the MCS, and sometime Special Cartographer
Re: Any interest or ideas on a new MN project?
Good question. At least three times I've followed the link to the Archipelago thinking 'sounds cool' only to see Bastion and close the browser. But I'm a known Bastion-phobe so take that for what it is.
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His Eminent Splendor,
His Chivalrous Eminence,
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His Matchless Grace,
His Majestic Honor,
His Eminent Splendor,
His Chivalrous Eminence,
The Rook
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Re: Any interest or ideas on a new MN project?
Please, please don't restart the CIS. Save us all the indignity of that.
However, a revived Asian-themed nation would be very welcome. I was very, albeit externally, involved in Chi-Nam and later New South Vietnam, so it'd be something I'd like to see.
However, a revived Asian-themed nation would be very welcome. I was very, albeit externally, involved in Chi-Nam and later New South Vietnam, so it'd be something I'd like to see.
Re: Any interest or ideas on a new MN project?
The Shogunate of Aran is a new Asian themed micronation already on the block if you need an asia fix.
His Incomparable Highness,
His Matchless Grace,
His Majestic Honor,
His Eminent Splendor,
His Chivalrous Eminence,
The Rook
Lord Protector of Uantir
His Matchless Grace,
His Majestic Honor,
His Eminent Splendor,
His Chivalrous Eminence,
The Rook
Lord Protector of Uantir
- Oscar Direzione
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Re: Any interest or ideas on a new MN project?
Personally I have to agree with that.Alfred Dunholm wrote:Please, please don't restart the CIS. Save us all the indignity of that.
However, a revived Asian-themed nation would be very welcome. I was very, albeit externally, involved in Chi-Nam and later New South Vietnam, so it'd be something I'd like to see.
I'll send you a PM Jeremy, and discuss with you some things I have in mind.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
The Kingdom of Oscland
The Kingdom of Oscland