Hub.mn

Hello!
I've got a question or two about the various micronational wikis. Does each wiki, the ones that I know of (MicrasWiki, MicroWiki, MicroWiki.org.uk), constitute a different sector? How are they connected? It seems that MicroWiki consists mostly of one-person Kingdoms, who are more like Molossa in style, whereas here at the hub, the micronations are all based on a shared fictional world, being more simulationist in nature.

Technically both MicroWiki (the .UK one) and Micronations.Wikia, as I understand it, have a hobby wide scope, though I don't particularly agree with the latter's attitude. While MicrasWiki, on the other hand, is more focused on things that pertain to Micras, the map and its community.

What Rook said, basically. MicroWikia is actually just the old website that MicroWiki was based on before moving to org.uk but a bunch of brats just decided to go back to it after a falling-out to try and start a "rival" one. In other words, if it's not the proper MicroWiki (org.uk), it's not worth the hassle...

Craitman wrote:What Rook said, basically. MicroWikia is actually just the old website that MicroWiki was based on before moving to org.uk but a bunch of brats just decided to go back to it after a falling-out to try and start a "rival" one. In other words, if it's not the proper MicroWiki (org.uk), it's not worth the hassle...

Yes, I was wondering about that. It seemed that the guys on microwiki are less statesman-like in demeanor, but as I've personally seen, that kind of stuff has dogged this hobby forever...

Hugo wrote:It seemed that the guys on microwiki are less statesman-like in demeanor

*MicroWikia. The proper one is MicroWiki, and given we have quite a few guys from there here, it's probably best not to get the names mixed-up

Craitman wrote:What Rook said, basically. MicroWikia is actually just the old website that MicroWiki was based on before moving to org.uk but a bunch of brats just decided to go back to it after a falling-out to try and start a "rival" one. In other words, if it's not the proper MicroWiki (org.uk), it's not worth the hassle...

Long version of the above:

MicroWiki used to be located at micronations.wikia.com and didn't really constitute its own sector in its beginnings - it just served as a wiki (most Micras nations that were around during that time had articles on there). Then it gradually turned into its own sector (the MicroWiki Sector), beginning about early 2008. It then began to develop what could be called a character of its own, which mainly included 'wars' and conducting diplomacy/micronational interaction on wiki talk pages rather than using forums or IRC. (Disclaimer: I wasn't around until August 2008 so all of the stuff before this time is hearsay).

The whole Wikia saga began when Wikia announced that they were changing the wiki skin to a completely inappropriate one (see the full list of issues here) which the wiki could not deal with. Users subsequently overwhelmingly voted to move to a self-hosted site, which was subsequently set up and managed by Pierre d'Égtavie and yours truly. However, a user called Kyng Fyrst kept the old micronations.wikia.com wiki going, despite a decision to abandon it, by effectively sucking up to the Wikia staff who refused to delete the wiki as requested. He became inactive after a while, but in early 2011 (I think?) another user took control of the wiki and re-started its activity, creating what is now the MicroWikia community. They tend to be young kids who have few coherent language skills and it could well be argued that they are not even micronations, given the huge superficiality of their creations (i.e. most 'micronations' exist only through their badly-written wiki page, and nothing else is ever done). There are exceptions, but its members are not held in very high regard by anyone.

Both sectors are characterised by single-person (almost always by people <18 years old) who, for a wide variety of reasons, claim real land like their backyards or bedrooms. It could be regarded as a sort of 'starting ground' for micronationalists, as quite a few have since gone on and matured, moving their activities to Micras. Others continue to cling onto their misheld beliefs and amateur interpretations of political theories (rebuttal of the most common example here) right into their post-education years, while most just quietly leave as they grow up.

For more MicroWiki/MicroWikia history, I would link you to the 'History of the MicroWiki Community' page on MicroWiki, but please be aware that parts of it are quite heavily biased (because apparently some people hold random grudges for over five years), so take what it says with a grain of salt. One day I'll get around to writing my own probably, but not yet

As for Micras, it is its own sector, but not a wiki-based one like the first two. MicrasWiki exists to document what already exists on the planet Micras - it is not a sector unto itself. At the risk of sounding biased here, it is mostly characterised by 18+ year olds who operate their micronations as a hobby or out of interest, not because of any secessionist fantasies. The reasons for doing so are probably just as varied as any other sector, but the people here are mostly adults and, perhaps most importantly, we behave like adults (unlike some other sectors which shall remain nameless).

I must say that the idea of mostly 1-person states on the Microwiki is absurd. Quite simply, as not all of our actions are done online, many of our meetings are undertaken in person by 'territorial' citizens (with some leeway as to exactly what 'territorial' means, of course), or over Skype, Facebook or texting.

I hasten to add that most of us aren't secessionists; however, we do like the idea of claiming physical land, because we can interact with it away from the Internet. I will be clear is saying that this isn't schtick against Micras and its' community; I wouldn't be here if it was something I didn't want to be involved in. However, I must respectfully counterpoint what Mr. Barry here is saying, as for the most part, online presence does not equate to numbers of citizens on the Microwiki.

That said, everything else is pretty much A-okay

Thanks, gents, for elaborating. Too bad micronationalists can't get their act together and create 4-5 vibrant micronations instead of the multitudes of Kingdom of Bedroom type ones

Cunningham wrote:I must say that the idea of mostly 1-person states on the Microwiki is absurd. Quite simply, as not all of our actions are done online, many of our meetings are undertaken in person by 'territorial' citizens (with some leeway as to exactly what 'territorial' means, of course), or over Skype, Facebook or texting.

I hasten to add that most of us aren't secessionists; however, we do like the idea of claiming physical land, because we can interact with it away from the Internet. I will be clear is saying that this isn't schtick against Micras and its' community; I wouldn't be here if it was something I didn't want to be involved in. However, I must respectfully counterpoint what Mr. Barry here is saying, as for the most part, online presence does not equate to numbers of citizens on the Microwiki.

That said, everything else is pretty much A-okay

Perhaps I should have qualified what I said about one-person micronations on MicroWiki by saying that most of them are like that. Some micronations claimed to have 20+ citizens, but very often they are citizens in name only and never actually contribute anything to the micronation (i.e. they were signed up one day, thought it was pretty cool, then immediately forgot about it the next day). Sure, there are exceptions who, as you say, do engage in such activities, but the vast majority do not.

Also, what I was saying about micronations existing only because of their wiki page applies principally to MicroWikia, which I'm sure you'll agree is the case. And as for the second-last sentence, I think you'll find that I agree with that

Hugo wrote:Thanks, gents, for elaborating. Too bad micronationalists can't get their act together and create 4-5 vibrant micronations instead of the multitudes of Kingdom of Bedroom type ones

Most (I say most) don't get into this hobby because they desire to be a member of someone else's organization. Read into it what you will about the nature of clientele, but it's an undeniable truth that makes 'why couldn't we just unionize into super nations!?' a pipe dream. This hobby attracts the sort of folks that will ensure it is forever a proliferation of tiny states.

Rook wrote:Most (I say most) don't get into this hobby because they desire to be a member of someone else's organization. Read into it what you will about the nature of clientele, but it's an undeniable truth that makes 'why couldn't we just unionize into super nations!?' a pipe dream. This hobby attracts the sort of folks that will ensure it is forever a proliferation of tiny states.

Rook is correct, the personality type behind most micronationalists makes a super-nation a pipe dream. The last time it was tried to any real success was Tymaria in 2001/2002 and that went down in flames pretty quickly!

And it's exactly why I enjoy the MCS's move toward judging nation's strengths and viability off of more than just forum post counts. While having a variety of people makes a nation more active, it doesn't necessarily correlate to a more vibrant or developed nation. There are plenty of advanced single, or low pop-count nations that are far more culturally advanced than groups of half a dozen who just repeat the same conversations over and over again. This move towards giving more credence to one person wiki-nations and such is not only a good move for the hobby, but is also in line with our mission to be impartial archivists of events that happen, record keepers of the map and not arbitrators of micronational culture.

One of the many factors contributing to Shireroth's success (after Tymaria), then, might be its feudal system; effectively a sub-sector with many one-man micronations (like my County, Mar Sara), which have their own individual politics, culture, history, but which are usually part of a wider regional collage. These regions form the principal subdivisions which combine to create Shireroth, crowned with the ever-evolving Imperial institutions. This is more enjoyable than being King, PM, Lord Privy Seal, Minister for the Interior, Exterior and Anterior in your own micronation, since you actually sit in a parliament and debate national laws and issues (rather than international treaties) with other real people with all the advantages of having your own fief, to mould to your will.

Being a feudal lord, giving you historical control over an area, doesn't make you the only one to role-play your area. I'm sure in a more democratic MN one could be able to contribute to the overall story of the land, even as a civilian. Maybe it's a matter of scope. In a democratic MN I participated in long ago, one could quite easily become a mayor of a city, and you were expected to make a small website, too, as opposed to the count of a whole country. Of course there weren't fantasy or even medieval elements present, which I must admit are fun to write about!