Longbow of Toketi
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
yes i could have written up city defenses but given that toketi wasn't on the area involved and in all honesty not directly involved i didn't think i needed to. partially because i was fighting as a novan citizen and partially because there really is no value to attacking toketi given the current situation. honestly other than maybe distracting those fighting what advantage does this yeild, this is called the Jasonian war not MWW3
and as for not on an orbat doesn't exist. My civilians weren't on an orbat so i guess they weren't slaughtered.
and as for not on an orbat doesn't exist. My civilians weren't on an orbat so i guess they weren't slaughtered.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
I agree with North. If non-orbatted defences don't count, you shouldn't be able to destroy them. it should be like they don't exist. Except if you say that then no cities exist either... hmm
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
It also makes no sense for a city heavily defended to just sit by and allow itself to be destroyed. It's going to attempt to save itself by whatever means possible, and if the attacker is being persistent enough, destroy them.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
read the rules again. i am sure there's mention of civilians being used. civilians can be used by both sides so long as they dont become a significant threat. like for instance what Jeremy is doing with those Christian movement thing in St. Helena for instance is perfectly valid. If those citizens were to suddenly have an AK-47 each or something, then that's a pretty significant threat to any unit, and that would be unallowed.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
I think Anunia needs to be redone with defences for cities taken into account. Like eah city gets a certain amount of points depending on it's size for the civilian defence force (like police would have guns, so if there is a small invasion coming in, the police would deal with it. Or security guards, or stuff like that)
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
but the civilians are not allowed to affect the outcome but condemned to be effected by the outcome?
i know believability civilians would come into play but so would as you go through the city that random guy shoots you with a shot gun when you break down his door.
just saying.
i know believability civilians would come into play but so would as you go through the city that random guy shoots you with a shot gun when you break down his door.
just saying.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Like Andreas said earlier, you are more than welcome to open this topic for discussion in the Anunia forum down below. We can continue this discussion there, and leave this thread for any issues specifically against/for Longbow.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Let us clarify the difference between Defences and Cities.
The defences referred to as existing National Defences under Anunia are things like having a tunnel system, or specific military facilities. If you'd like to argue they don't exist if not specified in the orbat, I think there'd be a very good argument the facility you attacked doesn't exist.
But cities are cities. Their basic physical structure exists and doesn't need to be put in National Defence, because it's just that - a basic structure. While some bits might have defensive uses if the civilians are pressed, they weren't intended as defences for orbatted units and don't need to be put under National Defence. They exist (if the nation is a good one) in the descriptions they give to their cities. So, for example, Damev is built on and in a mountain. That isn't a National Defensive Structure. It's just a fact. It's like, say, Uly Point is a tiny tourist village, the Sun City is an ancient and impregnable structure designed to withstand Imperial Assault (Imperial in the Micron sense, if you were wondering), or Novatica has The Spire. That's just a fact of the existence of the world. As is assumed all the terrain maps nation's produce. Or the physical map. Just because Extreme is attacking a place with no troops whatsoever, doesn't mean he has the right to redefine accepted Tokian reality and say "this place is just a town, because I say it is." If a description already existed publicly, that is what the city is. If Extreme didn't look or didn't find it, and it was pointed out later, it's not magicking up a defence. It's just reminding him what reality looks like.
Of course, if the Tokians were to claim there were mines placed in strategic places around the city and that wasn't listed in their national defence, that would be cheating. But pointing out that a city is a mountain isn't.
The defences referred to as existing National Defences under Anunia are things like having a tunnel system, or specific military facilities. If you'd like to argue they don't exist if not specified in the orbat, I think there'd be a very good argument the facility you attacked doesn't exist.
But cities are cities. Their basic physical structure exists and doesn't need to be put in National Defence, because it's just that - a basic structure. While some bits might have defensive uses if the civilians are pressed, they weren't intended as defences for orbatted units and don't need to be put under National Defence. They exist (if the nation is a good one) in the descriptions they give to their cities. So, for example, Damev is built on and in a mountain. That isn't a National Defensive Structure. It's just a fact. It's like, say, Uly Point is a tiny tourist village, the Sun City is an ancient and impregnable structure designed to withstand Imperial Assault (Imperial in the Micron sense, if you were wondering), or Novatica has The Spire. That's just a fact of the existence of the world. As is assumed all the terrain maps nation's produce. Or the physical map. Just because Extreme is attacking a place with no troops whatsoever, doesn't mean he has the right to redefine accepted Tokian reality and say "this place is just a town, because I say it is." If a description already existed publicly, that is what the city is. If Extreme didn't look or didn't find it, and it was pointed out later, it's not magicking up a defence. It's just reminding him what reality looks like.
Of course, if the Tokians were to claim there were mines placed in strategic places around the city and that wasn't listed in their national defence, that would be cheating. But pointing out that a city is a mountain isn't.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
I am curious, is this allowed? I would suspect not, since this never gives Scott the chance to respond against such an attempt. Perhaps there are rules in place within Scott's army, secret handshakes, etc... Maybe these scalzins would have been found out.Summary (when Scott retreats onto your ships):
of the 50 scalziin, 8 infiltrate each of Monty's 6 ships, while the other 2 remain elsewhere.
On each ship, they ATTEMPT TO (leaving you room to respond) (in this order of priority):
rig the engines + fuel tanks to explode
sabotage the AA defenses
sabotage the missile defenses
find where officers of rank are.
Summary (when everything goes to hell):
They press the button, hoping to detonate the engines + fuel lines.
Some attempt to fully disable the AA and missile defenses.
Some attempt to assassinate the officers of rank.
From then on, it's a firefight between the crew of the ships (not very well trained for person v person conflict) and the scalziin (insane infantry)
Either ways, the 'secret move' use is, in my opinion, being abused here. I personally think that the only part of the secret action that is valid would be the scalzins approaching Scott's base undetected. After that, it all has to be done in public post. You have to mention that your secret force is trying to integrate itself into the enemy camp.
I personally think that if there's going to be an interaction between a unit and an enemy unit, then that should be done in public. If no interactions are going to be done, then that could be done in a secret move.
And if you really want to pull such a thing off, you should talk to Scott first. If he agrees, you have a story to write (ie, valid move). If he doesn't, then you can't.
Just pointing things out.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
One would assume that the judge(s) that the move was pmed to would determine the success of the infiltration. Because if it is successful, the defending party would know nothing of it (hence it being a secret move). If it was unsuccessful, then it would make sense for it to be a public post, seeing as the troops were publicly noticed.
The part of this that would have to be public, under all circumstances, would be if my troops then did anything to Scott's army (which they did not).
It makes sense for this to be a secret move, if you consider the cold war. the USA and SU each sent spies into the others country. while the two countries may have known that spies could be sent, they were unsure of how many, when, where, etc.
as par with "And if you really want to pull such a thing off, you should talk to Scott first. If he agrees, you have a story to write (ie, valid move). If he doesn't, then you can't."
Yet you moved to attack Toketi (into enemy territory) without discussing it with any tokians. Why then would i not be allowed to move troops into enemy territory without discussing it with Scott?
The part of this that would have to be public, under all circumstances, would be if my troops then did anything to Scott's army (which they did not).
It makes sense for this to be a secret move, if you consider the cold war. the USA and SU each sent spies into the others country. while the two countries may have known that spies could be sent, they were unsure of how many, when, where, etc.
as par with "And if you really want to pull such a thing off, you should talk to Scott first. If he agrees, you have a story to write (ie, valid move). If he doesn't, then you can't."
Yet you moved to attack Toketi (into enemy territory) without discussing it with any tokians. Why then would i not be allowed to move troops into enemy territory without discussing it with Scott?
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
You can move troops into enemy territory, not enemy base. How would you feel if I said in my next post, that my special forces explode some of your units and take your main character captive? I could say that I had PMed the judge about this secret action, of my special forces infiltrating your unit.
Anyway, its up to Scott first to see if he accepts your move. If he does, its all good. If he doesn't, then its up to the judges.
Anyway, its up to Scott first to see if he accepts your move. If he does, its all good. If he doesn't, then its up to the judges.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Surely the judges would have said something to Longbow if they felt
a. His troops couldn't get in undetected or
b. He needed to post that his troops were there.
It's the judges responsibility to say if a secret move is impossible or not. Since I know Longbow pm'd this ... was it almost a week ago now? ... anyway, long enough that if there were any problems the judges should have responded. Like, for example, they should post when two secret moves collide.
a. His troops couldn't get in undetected or
b. He needed to post that his troops were there.
It's the judges responsibility to say if a secret move is impossible or not. Since I know Longbow pm'd this ... was it almost a week ago now? ... anyway, long enough that if there were any problems the judges should have responded. Like, for example, they should post when two secret moves collide.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Aye. But it seems Vilhelm is either away for a while, or unable to perform that kind of responsibility.It's the judges responsibility to say if a secret move is impossible or not. Since I know Longbow pm'd this ... was it almost a week ago now? ... anyway, long enough that if there were any problems the judges should have responded. Like, for example, they should post when two secret moves collide.
Already, mine and Demon's units performed secret actions that sort of collide. And now this, with regards to Longbow's.
Also, longbow, Scott mentioned this in the main thread, and i'll point it out here (so as not to disturb the main thread). The hyperborean soldiers have their own unique language that is different to the normal Shirethian language. I personally don't know what the difference is, or how many languages there are in Shireroth, or for that matter who all are in Shireroth anyway. I am just pointing it out because you said your men knew some Shirethian language.
Also, even if your 50 men stay with each other as a close knit group, there's still the issue of their housing, their duties, their chain of command (not just within your 50 men, but within the entire Scott's army) etc... to consider.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
housing: why do you think i had the bombing runs? after killing ~1800 of his troops, there would be more than enough housing for them. Or, as i had also done, create a separate base of operations, specifically mentioned to be where Scott would not find it.
Chain of command: easy. they listen to orders, while taking place of some of the dead troops.
duties: they do them. They even WANT guard duty, as I was originally planning on assassinating all scott's officers as well. Who better to do the job than his "guards"?
language: As I said in the main thread, they would likely know the language, as it is their duty to know anything and everything possible (and the language to obtain that knowledge from). and even if they aren't fluent, his soldiers wouldn't speak that language 100% of the time. If they only learn it once in the military, their birth language is most likely not that one, in fact, it is most likely common Sheirothian (spelling?). And people are usually more inclined to speak their birth language, than something else, (provided that those around them also speak their birth language.)
Vilhelm: I had sent it to him 8 days before I posted anything about it. He was not away for those entire 8 days.
Why not Monty: Nothing personal Monty, but i needed you to know nothing of this until it happened. For reasonably obvious reasons.
Chain of command: easy. they listen to orders, while taking place of some of the dead troops.
duties: they do them. They even WANT guard duty, as I was originally planning on assassinating all scott's officers as well. Who better to do the job than his "guards"?
language: As I said in the main thread, they would likely know the language, as it is their duty to know anything and everything possible (and the language to obtain that knowledge from). and even if they aren't fluent, his soldiers wouldn't speak that language 100% of the time. If they only learn it once in the military, their birth language is most likely not that one, in fact, it is most likely common Sheirothian (spelling?). And people are usually more inclined to speak their birth language, than something else, (provided that those around them also speak their birth language.)
Vilhelm: I had sent it to him 8 days before I posted anything about it. He was not away for those entire 8 days.
Why not Monty: Nothing personal Monty, but i needed you to know nothing of this until it happened. For reasonably obvious reasons.
- Lord_Montague
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Nicholas the Mad sends me secret moves and I don't see myself divulging that information everywhere.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.