Longbow of Toketi
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Not arguing about the part in bold. That's valid I suppose.housing: why do you think i had the bombing runs? after killing ~1800 of his troops, there would be more than enough housing for them. Or, as i had also done, create a separate base of operations, specifically mentioned to be where Scott would not find it.
The other part however is something you are not seeing properly. Say this base has tents and camps, or some form of accommodations for the soldiers. Now, each of the bed and such things are always assigned to particular individuals. How then do you send 50 of these people (ok a few of them) into another room, where the chances of them [Scott's men] knowing each other (because they trained together and have been together since the start of the war) are very high? Suspicions would be raised easily if they [your men] tried to assume someone else's identity, especially if that someone happened to be from that room already!
But, you already had made some other arrangements of your own, as you mentioned in bold. Fair enough. But then this base of operation would obviously have to be outside of Scott's base, as anything inside is someplace Scott would easily notice and find out. Now, if its outside, your men are going to be doing a lot of in-out traffic, which again would easily raise suspicion.
Ok. Let me clarify it a bit more, and use an example that perhaps you can be more familiar with. Say a CEO of a company wants to do something, he's going to get his top people in the meeting room and give out orders. He obviously knows everyone in that room. Next, one of them, say the Chief Finance Officer, goes out and gives his orders to those underneath him. Again, he's going to know who works for him directly underneath. And so on, until the janitor or the summer student / intern positions. Now, the CEO is obviously not going to know all the janitor or intern names, nor should he.Chain of command: easy. they listen to orders, while taking place of some of the dead troops.
Same here. Scott's main characters would know all the commanders around him, who intern would know all their own commanders, sergeants, lieutenants, corporals in the order of the force structure etc...
How then do your men fit in that? And remember, this is a close knit group. So, you can't have your men in a squad which has at least 1 of Scott's men, cause then the other squad members will easily identify the traitor. That leaves the option of an entire new squad consisting of only your men. Now, where does this squad get its orders from? Does one of your squad men walk up into the squad leaders meeting and just take orders? This is not like a university class, where the professor doesn't know who all are sitting in. Its more like a kinder garden or junior school, where the teacher knows you by face and name. A new face for a given name, or a new student entirely, is quickly caught !
Yes. I realize. And I didn't mean, 'do they do the duties?'. I meant more like, how do they get these duties? See chain of command argument. If you don't understand still, then I'd be happy to provide some sort of non-military example for you.duties: they do them. They even WANT guard duty, as I was originally planning on assassinating all scott's officers as well. Who better to do the job than his "guards"?
Hmmm.. I was under the impression that his troops were hyperboreans. I could be wrong. Like I said earlier, I know very little of Shireroth culture. For me Shireroth consists of a very few things, and I dont dwell much into it.language: As I said in the main thread, they would likely know the language, as it is their duty to know anything and everything possible (and the language to obtain that knowledge from). and even if they aren't fluent, his soldiers wouldn't speak that language 100% of the time. If they only learn it once in the military, their birth language is most likely not that one, in fact, it is most likely common Sheirothian (spelling?). And people are usually more inclined to speak their birth language, than something else, (provided that those around them also speak their birth language.)
Yes, I know Vilhelm wasn't away for those days. But I doubt he checks his PMs. I had sent the judges PMs asking for clarification. I only got responses from Montague. And no worries, I assumed you guys aren't sending it to Montague as he's an opponent, and let's be honest, its apparent that you (guys) don't trust him. I too wouldn't send my secret moves to a person I don't fully trust.Vilhelm: I had sent it to him 8 days before I posted anything about it. He was not away for those entire 8 days.
Why not Monty: Nothing personal Monty, but i needed you to know nothing of this until it happened. For reasonably obvious reasons.
EDIT:
typos
- Lord_Montague
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
I doubt his secret moves lead to attacks on your army. Even if you knew of it, but tried not to act on it, the knowledge would still be there and influence your actions slightly. Maybe not large enough to matter, but (for me) better safe than sorry.Lord_Montague wrote:Nicholas the Mad sends me secret moves and I don't see myself divulging that information everywhere.
extreme: I'll post responses to your stuff when i'm not as tired as i am now.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Next time, we just won't put the judge in the war, to avoid this.Lord_Montague wrote:Why don't you trust me?
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Yeah, most of my secret moves were just having stealth fighters do stuff. I don't have enough infantry to really do a ground assault in any way.Longbow of Toketi wrote:I doubt his secret moves lead to attacks on your army. Even if you knew of it, but tried not to act on it, the knowledge would still be there and influence your actions slightly. Maybe not large enough to matter, but (for me) better safe than sorry.Lord_Montague wrote:Nicholas the Mad sends me secret moves and I don't see myself divulging that information everywhere.
extreme: I'll post responses to your stuff when i'm not as tired as i am now.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
I have the weaknesses of the Omen though. When I attacked it, I didn't conciously or subconciously (think I've spelt wrongly but oh well) aim for those weaknesses though did I?
Longbow, they weren't attacks against my forces. You had no idea I would attempt a rescue for Scott's force when, from what I gather the time line is, you launched your infiltration.
Longbow, they weren't attacks against my forces. You had no idea I would attempt a rescue for Scott's force when, from what I gather the time line is, you launched your infiltration.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
- Scott Alexander
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
The borders of large nations are somewhat permeable, and if one spy gets caught, the next one can get in. However, my army would have set up perimeter guards, et cetera. How, exactly, do you intend to get fifty people onto a besieged island without anyone noticing? I already mentioned we're patrolling the borders, if only to shoot down some of Nicholas' gunships. We don't need to catch all of your spies. Only one. Then we realize that you're trying to spy on us. I read an old story that US soldiers during WWII, worried about enemies entering captured territory pretending to be Americans, used to ask any supposed US soldiers they came across whom they didn't recognize who won the World Series that year. Americans would know, Germans wouldn't. What drink do soldiers ceremonially consume before a war? Who killed the Prince of Clouds? Aph kuin espaNodorionyon rhasi? If your spies can't answer those question, they're dead (and I don't think the Germans tried anything nearly as audacious as what you're doing: just getting far enough into US-held land to blow up some bridges, not actually living among American troops).It makes sense for this to be a secret move, if you consider the cold war. the USA and SU each sent spies into the others country. while the two countries may have known that spies could be sent, they were unsure of how many, when, where, etc.
This is starting to annoy me. The Hyperborean language isn't spoken outside of Hyperborea. Hyperborea has somewhere between 500000 and 1 million people (I don't quite know the exact number. Ryan's population formula suggests 200,000, but I want a few more. I've been known to say it's a little bigger than Iceland, which has about 400,000). In Earth terms, that's fewer speakers than Kyrgyz, Waray-Waray, Southern Bolivian Quechua, or Ibibio-Efik. Do you think the US has trained 50 special forces people to speak Ibibio-Efik, just in case they have to fight soldiers from the Akwa Iborn state in Nigeria?language: As I said in the main thread, they would likely know the language, as it is their duty to know anything and everything possible (and the language to obtain that knowledge from). and even if they aren't fluent, his soldiers wouldn't speak that language 100% of the time. If they only learn it once in the military, their birth language is most likely not that one, in fact, it is most likely common Sheirothian (spelling?). And people are usually more inclined to speak their birth language, than something else, (provided that those around them also speak their birth language.)
All of the soldiers in my arms except General Scussion and some (two dozen) of the mercenaries with flycycles are native Hyperboreans. Shireroth's military units are all ducal militias and Hyperborea has its own army. They ARE speaking their birth language, everyone around them speaks their birth language, and anyone who spoke in Shirerithian except with a very good reason and with a heavy Hyperborean accent would be considered extremely odd.
The Hyperborean language is completely unrelated to Shirerithian and in fact pre-dates the existence of Shireroth both in-game and out-of-game. If it is related to any other living language, it might bear a slight relation to ancient Audente or to Treesian (and from Treesian perhaps to Craitish, though I've never explored this), but only to the degree English resembles Proto-Germanic. In several previous recwars, I've mentioned the existence of interpreters and of difficulties in communications with the Hyperborean forces.
There is a very very old tutorial on speaking Hyperborean at http://subdivisions.shireroth.org/hyper ... ilikan.doc. I include it here only to prove this is not some newfangled dialect of Shirerithian that nobody speaks, but a language rather older than 90% of the micronations in this war, with a rich literary tradition.
You cannot understand our orders. Quick, rhonimitsi athateryalion Lopheli! If you asked a commander to repeat that in standard Shirerithian, first he would have to think back to his school days when he studied Shirerithian, and then even if he was quite good at it (as many are) he would start wondering why you were asking. ESPECIALLY if you had Hyperborean racial features, which you said your men have been disguised with. Further, troops are organized into lots of 7-9 and divisions of about 100-150 (reason: those are considered by psychologists the human small group limit and Dunbar's Number, respectively. Long story). Even if you passed off your 50 as 7 very isolated lots, most orders would go through division commanders, and a division commander with 100-150 men would be kind of confused at having 50 extra men in his division who weren't there last night. There are 40-50 division commanders per unit, so I also think the unit commanders would notice an extra division commander showing up to meetings.Chain of command: easy. they listen to orders, while taking place of some of the dead troops.
Scott Alexander | Autokrator of Archipelago (What is Archipelago?)
Illustrious Founder of the MCS, and sometime Special Cartographer
Illustrious Founder of the MCS, and sometime Special Cartographer
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
all right, all right, save your keyboards. I've grown sick and tired of this constant arguing over various moves. This not being my first international war, i should have expected it (silly me), but oh well.
Summary: Screw. This. Attack. No judicial ruling needed, it never happened. The bombing runs did.
Side note: Someone kick vilhelm for NOT SAYING ANYTHING when this was sent to him over a week ago, or any time since then.
Scalziin are in their previous position.
side note B: If any of you dispute this post, i swear to the powers almighty...
Summary: Screw. This. Attack. No judicial ruling needed, it never happened. The bombing runs did.
Side note: Someone kick vilhelm for NOT SAYING ANYTHING when this was sent to him over a week ago, or any time since then.
Scalziin are in their previous position.
side note B: If any of you dispute this post, i swear to the powers almighty...
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Thank you. Again, I happily give you the bombing runs. Well, not happily, but I will plot my revenge in silence for now.
Scott Alexander | Autokrator of Archipelago (What is Archipelago?)
Illustrious Founder of the MCS, and sometime Special Cartographer
Illustrious Founder of the MCS, and sometime Special Cartographer
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Longbow, you can attempt it. If you had said that you were trying to get spies in, you might have got away with perhaps 1 or 2. Maybe not hyperborean troops, as their history shows, but certainly some other grounds units is a possibility. But you can't make a secret move and send suddenly ten days later say that your unit had been operating inside the others. In such a case, you are not giving the enemy a chance to fight you. Remember, the opposing commanders have to somehow in-game figure out that your units are infiltrating his/hers. If you think that the opponent player has god-modded by letting his commander know of your presence (without any significant case), then you are within your rights to point it out to the judge. If the judge agrees with you, and this is all public btw (so no secret moves), then the opponent player has to continue the story in a way such that his commanders are still unaware of your unit's presence inside his.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
I repeat, if Longbow's forces are in via a secret move, and aren't doing anything, it's the Judge's responsibility to say "no, you'd be detected easily, I tell Scott" or "yes, you're in safely." Once they're in, yes, Longbow should post when he actually *does* something (and he did, as soon as the evacuation plans came up, he posted he was there and doing something). But Vilhelm should have said "you'd never get away with hiding in the Hyperboreans" and told him the secret move was impossible.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
I agree with Andreas on this one. I don't think Longbow did anything wrong (except possibly being over-optimistic about what I consider an unrealistic plan) but I wish Benkern had either said outright "I understand why there would be objections but I've made an official decision this will work" or else given Longbow information about what happened (ie how many spies were captured, how suspicious I was, etc).
This is really the first time anyone's ever tried something like this, and it might be worth a discussion in the Anunia forum.
This is really the first time anyone's ever tried something like this, and it might be worth a discussion in the Anunia forum.
Scott Alexander | Autokrator of Archipelago (What is Archipelago?)
Illustrious Founder of the MCS, and sometime Special Cartographer
Illustrious Founder of the MCS, and sometime Special Cartographer
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Er, Scott, you mean "this is the first time anyone's tried this internationally." It happens in Toketi all the time (albeit normally on a smaller scale and with some magic involved to complement the disguise)
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
Wars without infiltration? Pah. It's no fun without at least one commander assassinated.
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Re: Longbow of Toketi
I agree as well that the judges should mention this right away and keep track of all the units and secret moves. However, you can't assume that the judge would be aware of all the things about a unit, in this case Scott's hyperborean troops. Even if I were a judge, I might have said a YES simply because I wasn't aware that hyperborean troops did things in a unique fashion. And you can't necessarily mention all of this pre-war as troop capabilities. Its not something that comes often. That's why I say that the best bet is to secret move units close to the enemy, and then:
1. Either talk to the opponent player if you can do it.
2. Go ahead and try it yourself. And then if detected in a proper manner, be ready to lose. If detected in some what doubtful manner or god-modding manner, get a judge.
1. Either talk to the opponent player if you can do it.
2. Go ahead and try it yourself. And then if detected in a proper manner, be ready to lose. If detected in some what doubtful manner or god-modding manner, get a judge.