Montague vs Andreas
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Montague vs Andreas
Just hammering this out in another thread
Montague, as soon as Scott posted the observation that those rivers are meant to be the rivers show on the old Jasonia map, and not 12 mile wide channels as the MCS map suggests, I abandoned all efforts to go up and down the rivers (you'll notice my original post changed from "top of Nang" to "entry of river".
I know that what I meant my patrols to be - I meant them to be all around Nelaga island, including passing close by Provost.
But let's see what I wrote to see if I explained it well or not ...
My patrols were
The evidence my intention of the patrol was always as I post the picture should be the second quoted post, where I said I'd be coordinated to be near Redoubt Island (which is also called Enhasa island, as I used the term when I posted OOC saying my patrols went there). It'd be a bit silly being "near Redoubt Island" if I was just patrolling around Provost.
My final post, I admit, may have caused some confusion because I said regular patrols round Nang, but I was just referring to my previous patrols by shorthand, instead of saying "round the general area Nang/Provost is and along Nelaga", because I'd explained it earlier anyway. In my defence, it would be a bit silly looking for you if we were just going around Provost
So anyway, my point is I know my patrols were as the picture above says and always meant that, but I can see where I didn't explain that in detail and some confusion may have derived from. So, do you believe me when I say my patrol is like that, and then, taking that into account, would you still have known my exact position without my radar, which was on the lookout, detecting you?
Montague, as soon as Scott posted the observation that those rivers are meant to be the rivers show on the old Jasonia map, and not 12 mile wide channels as the MCS map suggests, I abandoned all efforts to go up and down the rivers (you'll notice my original post changed from "top of Nang" to "entry of river".
I know that what I meant my patrols to be - I meant them to be all around Nelaga island, including passing close by Provost.
But let's see what I wrote to see if I explained it well or not ...
My patrols were
Mel'Kat's navy will patrol the bay around the south of Nelaga, including Provost Island, to stop any navy rescuing them. Helicopter patrols (probably Nick's, I'll ask him) will go along the rivers to stop any attempts by flycycles to escape.
Meanwhile, Mel'Kat goes off to command the next naval patrol around Nang and Nelaga. It'll be coordinated to be near Redoubt Island when the Omen is due to pass over, but won't engage or anything, and will try not to do things out of the ordinary (so it still looks like a normal patrol).
Ok, I see where the confusion came from. In my original post I said "Bay south of Nelaga", which I meant in the very general-est sense (Nelaga island overall forms a ^ shape so by bay I meant between the two bottom parts of the ^, passing by Nang itself as shown above). It should have been obvious it wasn't actually patrolling around Provost Island because the helicopters go along the rivers (as I took the rivers as too small for ships).Once they've refuled/stocked, regular patrols round Nang will recommence. They're keeping their electronic ears open for signs of Monty's fleet, Vilhelm (since no one else can tell me if I'm likely to stumble on him).
The evidence my intention of the patrol was always as I post the picture should be the second quoted post, where I said I'd be coordinated to be near Redoubt Island (which is also called Enhasa island, as I used the term when I posted OOC saying my patrols went there). It'd be a bit silly being "near Redoubt Island" if I was just patrolling around Provost.
My final post, I admit, may have caused some confusion because I said regular patrols round Nang, but I was just referring to my previous patrols by shorthand, instead of saying "round the general area Nang/Provost is and along Nelaga", because I'd explained it earlier anyway. In my defence, it would be a bit silly looking for you if we were just going around Provost
So anyway, my point is I know my patrols were as the picture above says and always meant that, but I can see where I didn't explain that in detail and some confusion may have derived from. So, do you believe me when I say my patrol is like that, and then, taking that into account, would you still have known my exact position without my radar, which was on the lookout, detecting you?
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Point conceded on where you're patrolling.
How about we scrap one attack as going astray but the other luckily finding you as where I thought you were patrolling (around nang island) is about a quarter of your actual patrol?
As to the radar thing, they're sub's firing at you from beyond radar range (like I did against the Anticans). You wouldnt be capable of detecting my subs with radar because they're below the surface. At best, as discussed in a previous thread, you could try and plot the trajectory from where they came from but i could have used waypoints and fired them from a completely different position than what you think.
So how about we say 1 batch of missiles incoming, the other batch kill a shoal of whales or dolphins or Jasonian Mutant fish or whatever?
How about we scrap one attack as going astray but the other luckily finding you as where I thought you were patrolling (around nang island) is about a quarter of your actual patrol?
As to the radar thing, they're sub's firing at you from beyond radar range (like I did against the Anticans). You wouldnt be capable of detecting my subs with radar because they're below the surface. At best, as discussed in a previous thread, you could try and plot the trajectory from where they came from but i could have used waypoints and fired them from a completely different position than what you think.
So how about we say 1 batch of missiles incoming, the other batch kill a shoal of whales or dolphins or Jasonian Mutant fish or whatever?
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In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Two batches? I thought you only had one sub fire 16 missiles at me.
If so, 1 volley hitting me is fine, I guess.
And by detect I meant "if you know where I am, at some point, you must have come within radar range ..." (I'm not disputing it anymore, just trying to explain what I meant in general).
Unless I missed something or it fires those 16 in two volleys?HMLS Aden fires 16 Tomahawk Cruise missiles from her previously secret position at Andreas' Naval force in the rivers around Provost Island. She will then move to a new secret location. They are approaching from the North East.
If so, 1 volley hitting me is fine, I guess.
And by detect I meant "if you know where I am, at some point, you must have come within radar range ..." (I'm not disputing it anymore, just trying to explain what I meant in general).
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
- Lord_Montague
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Oh well let's forget it then. I thought I had fired two but looking back, I didn't because I attacked Nova Kajar didn't I? Sorry about that.
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In Victory; Unbearable.
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Ah. Well, I'll be nice and let you have the two strikes I just wrote in on the navy anyway. Just don't dispute and say it should have been more damages.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Monty im not disputing but i am curious if your out of radar range how your able to find and engage targets?
as im assuming that means your also out of visual range
as im assuming that means your also out of visual range
- Lord_Montague
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Please read above or in the official war thread as to how, Demon.
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Monty, you're saying you apparently mined the approaches to Bryden. I'm quite interested. When did you do this? Your troops just snuck right into Nelagan waters in the 4-6 hours between patrols (patrols which were keeping an eye out for you both coming out and going in)? A navy that wasn't mine going right by Bryden or near the coast, which *does* have people there to watch, not getting noticed in the slightest?
Or are you seriously going to suggest you did it just then in the half patrol between when the patrol set out again after your attack and before they were recalled?
EDIT: Wait, you're saying you did it when I went to refuel and rearm. That's even more interesting, because just before that you fired at me not knowing my patrol routes were completely different to what you thought. And you managed to sneak into an area near Bryden and mine it while my fleet remained on "high alert" as I put it. And Fides' planes scouting. Just how stealthy are your ships ....
And since Vilhelm didn't respond, and assuming you did mine an area that was well out of sight and radar range and my fleet did pass through that area, you might as well say - a fleet on high alert including looking out for subs - how soon would they detect mines?
SECOND EDIT: An investigation of your orbat suggests that you deploy "naval mines" from your subs. That explains how you did it undetected, at least (though you couldn't have come *too* close to Bryden in that time or you would have been noticed). My question then becomes - specify what these "naval mines" are - Wikipedia comes up with a bunch of types. Are we talking contact mines or proximity mines? Anti-sub or Anti-ship? And how many (I can't envision submarines costed at the base cost to have too many mines)? This is so I can take proper damages.
Or are you seriously going to suggest you did it just then in the half patrol between when the patrol set out again after your attack and before they were recalled?
EDIT: Wait, you're saying you did it when I went to refuel and rearm. That's even more interesting, because just before that you fired at me not knowing my patrol routes were completely different to what you thought. And you managed to sneak into an area near Bryden and mine it while my fleet remained on "high alert" as I put it. And Fides' planes scouting. Just how stealthy are your ships ....
And since Vilhelm didn't respond, and assuming you did mine an area that was well out of sight and radar range and my fleet did pass through that area, you might as well say - a fleet on high alert including looking out for subs - how soon would they detect mines?
SECOND EDIT: An investigation of your orbat suggests that you deploy "naval mines" from your subs. That explains how you did it undetected, at least (though you couldn't have come *too* close to Bryden in that time or you would have been noticed). My question then becomes - specify what these "naval mines" are - Wikipedia comes up with a bunch of types. Are we talking contact mines or proximity mines? Anti-sub or Anti-ship? And how many (I can't envision submarines costed at the base cost to have too many mines)? This is so I can take proper damages.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
I am not sure what is going on in your situation here, so I can't say much. But i'll answer the following question:
Further, mines (like any other weapon system) come in varying forms and detonation methods. How it detonates, under what conditions, etc.. all depend on what mine type Montague put (if he put them in the first place). That's why I like putting real world names. Cause then I can point out and say, "no you can't defend yourself in such a manner because my weapon avoids that. see description". Or when used against me, I can say, "your weapon description says it can't detect so-and-so stuff, which my ship clearly describes as being used on it. so bad luck."
It provides a much stronger argument for your side. Anyways, that's my take.
When the first ship has a mysterious (unexplained) powerful explosion, your unit will know that mines might exist in the waters. No way of really detecting the mines though. Actually, no that's not true. If its a floating mine (and i doubt it would be so easy), then you can easily see it. If its a submerged mine, then not detectable without specialized equipment. I say specialized equipment cause there are minesweeper ships, which remove mines, and thus, I assume there's some method of finding them in the first place.how soon would they detect mines?
Further, mines (like any other weapon system) come in varying forms and detonation methods. How it detonates, under what conditions, etc.. all depend on what mine type Montague put (if he put them in the first place). That's why I like putting real world names. Cause then I can point out and say, "no you can't defend yourself in such a manner because my weapon avoids that. see description". Or when used against me, I can say, "your weapon description says it can't detect so-and-so stuff, which my ship clearly describes as being used on it. so bad luck."
It provides a much stronger argument for your side. Anyways, that's my take.
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
So what you're saying, Extreme, is if I find a mind and suspect more, I could easily turn around with minimal further damages?
And yes, we need Montague to specify what sort of mines these "naval mines" are.
And yes, we need Montague to specify what sort of mines these "naval mines" are.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Yes. Generally, the pattern on board a fleet is:
Ship ABC sails close to a mine that explodes
Captain: "Holy crap. What was that explosion?"
Officer: "No idea"
Captain: "MINE! ALL STOP. ALERT ALL FRIENDLY SHIPS"
Ship QWE gets alerted of mines in region
Captain: "All stop."
Ship XYZ gets alerted of mines in region
Captain: "Turn us around NOW!"
Notes:
1. It doesn't matter if the enemy had put 1000 mines or 1 mine. The reaction is the same.
2. I said ship ABC as opposed to ship 1, because it doesn't have to be the first ship in the fleet. It could be the second or third. Perhaps the first few ships got lucky.
While the damage may be minimal, it could be significant for those unlucky ships. They may either sink right away, or have other explosions in them (like ammunition storage caught fire and exploded, or the fuel cells heated up to explode etc...), or somehow manage to get into port (but off course they wouldn't get repaired quickly to see action again in this war).
Ship ABC sails close to a mine that explodes
Captain: "Holy crap. What was that explosion?"
Officer: "No idea"
Captain: "MINE! ALL STOP. ALERT ALL FRIENDLY SHIPS"
Ship QWE gets alerted of mines in region
Captain: "All stop."
Ship XYZ gets alerted of mines in region
Captain: "Turn us around NOW!"
Notes:
1. It doesn't matter if the enemy had put 1000 mines or 1 mine. The reaction is the same.
2. I said ship ABC as opposed to ship 1, because it doesn't have to be the first ship in the fleet. It could be the second or third. Perhaps the first few ships got lucky.
While the damage may be minimal, it could be significant for those unlucky ships. They may either sink right away, or have other explosions in them (like ammunition storage caught fire and exploded, or the fuel cells heated up to explode etc...), or somehow manage to get into port (but off course they wouldn't get repaired quickly to see action again in this war).
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
You generally need dedicated mine hunting vessels to deal effectively with suspected minefields (and this is one of the few areas where our American friends still consider the Royal Navy to be generally useful) otherwise its MK I naval rating at the bow of the ship with a machine gun...
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
yay!
but yeah only way i can think of to pick them up is with active sonar but that would give away your position/ isnt a standard movement action.
but yeah only way i can think of to pick them up is with active sonar but that would give away your position/ isnt a standard movement action.
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
My question was not "can I remove them." I know I need special stuff for that. My question was, "If I'm searching for Monty's fleet and looking for subs especially, would I detect mines before hitting them?"
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
hmmmm....
that actually might be possible depending on how your searching...
if you were using active sonar (pinging/echo location) you would have detected the mines... probably, monty would know where you were but if he came in range you would find him or the mines. if however you were just using passive sonar unless they have a stability unit or motor i'd say no, but they might though even then it would probably be small and quiet...
I would ask you how you were searching for his subs/fleet but (no offense meant) i know you probably dont know how you were doing it or what equipment you were using.
in your mind had you been trying to quietly sneak up on/find Monty or where you tearing up the sea checking under every wave looking for him?
that actually might be possible depending on how your searching...
if you were using active sonar (pinging/echo location) you would have detected the mines... probably, monty would know where you were but if he came in range you would find him or the mines. if however you were just using passive sonar unless they have a stability unit or motor i'd say no, but they might though even then it would probably be small and quiet...
I would ask you how you were searching for his subs/fleet but (no offense meant) i know you probably dont know how you were doing it or what equipment you were using.
in your mind had you been trying to quietly sneak up on/find Monty or where you tearing up the sea checking under every wave looking for him?