Montague vs Andreas
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Since it was a common-knowledge regular patrol, I certainly wasn't trying to sneak up on Montague. I'd definitely go with the "ripping the sea in front of me apart" option. As to how looking for subs ... ships that can detect subs (and my subs themselves) doing whatever ships that can detect subs and subs do ... and I specifically mentioned my Seahawks doing whatever it is helicopters do to look for subs.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Would you say that in your entire patrol path, there are wide chunks of un-observed paths? I don't know what the entire path distance is to be honest. But I don't think its small enough such that you have total coverage of the entire path at all the times.
Perhaps, Montague slipped into the port at that particular time?
I am taking wild guesses here as I don't know what kind of secret move Montague had made (and when). I am just trying to help you guys solve this and keep moving.
Perhaps, Montague slipped into the port at that particular time?
I am taking wild guesses here as I don't know what kind of secret move Montague had made (and when). I am just trying to help you guys solve this and keep moving.
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
i dont think were debating the sneaking in to set up mines i think the current question is can we assume that Andreas would have been doing active sonar sweeps in front of his advancing force which would give him a decent chance of picking up the mines, not do anything about them or get past them but notice that they are there.
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
It is possible. However, the ship must move really slowly. How slow is slow? Well, let's just say that its slow enough such that a whole enemy fleet could move in to Nang, enjoy a cup of coffee there and leave.
Ok. Maybe that's too far fetched. But you get the idea.
Ok. Maybe that's too far fetched. But you get the idea.
- Lord_Montague
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
It was done after you entered the harbour. The reason you would not have detected the subs is because they were in transit moving to the region as I originally had them blockading Nova Kajar and slightly north of Bryden. When they arrived they started laying mines when you were in port. Demon's planes would not have detected them because as mentioned in another argument, planes do not detect submarines. Also, you were in harbour. Ships tend to feel safe there as do their crews. Its also very hard for sonar to operate in harbours and docks, as they're filled with ambient noise making passive sonar difficult to listen to.Andreas the Wise wrote:Monty, you're saying you apparently mined the approaches to Bryden. I'm quite interested. When did you do this? Your troops just snuck right into Nelagan waters in the 4-6 hours between patrols (patrols which were keeping an eye out for you both coming out and going in)? A navy that wasn't mine going right by Bryden or near the coast, which *does* have people there to watch, not getting noticed in the slightest?
Or are you seriously going to suggest you did it just then in the half patrol between when the patrol set out again after your attack and before they were recalled?
EDIT: Wait, you're saying you did it when I went to refuel and rearm. That's even more interesting, because just before that you fired at me not knowing my patrol routes were completely different to what you thought. And you managed to sneak into an area near Bryden and mine it while my fleet remained on "high alert" as I put it. And Fides' planes scouting. Just how stealthy are your ships ....
And since Vilhelm didn't respond, and assuming you did mine an area that was well out of sight and radar range and my fleet did pass through that area, you might as well say - a fleet on high alert including looking out for subs - how soon would they detect mines?
SECOND EDIT: An investigation of your orbat suggests that you deploy "naval mines" from your subs. That explains how you did it undetected, at least (though you couldn't have come *too* close to Bryden in that time or you would have been noticed). My question then becomes - specify what these "naval mines" are - Wikipedia comes up with a bunch of types. Are we talking contact mines or proximity mines? Anti-sub or Anti-ship? And how many (I can't envision submarines costed at the base cost to have too many mines)? This is so I can take proper damages.
I also never said they were out of radar range this time.
If we're going into specifics, shall I say each sub lays 8 mines? All are MK67 SLMM Submarine Launched Mobile Mines.
The only way the mines being placed could be detected is possibly the opening of the torpedo tube doors and the firing but as mentioned, considering you were in port it is unlikely they would have been detected.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
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In Victory; Unbearable.
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
This is possible. A ship in port, even with actively sending sonar "pings", would create a lot of noise. Every little item in the port would then reflect and deflect the signal. All other ships (your own plus port vessels like tugboats plus other commercial ships etc...) as well as small items (like pillars or buoys or gates or poles etc..) would all reflect the signal back. You'd also get the sonar waves hitting the port sides, deflecting from there to one of the items mentioned above, then getting reflected back at you, making that object detected twice.... actually it might be hundreds of times because of all the other sonar waves hitting each item and deflecting (making it a new source of sonar signal).. They operate like waves, really. Its quite possible for a submarine to crawl in, drop mines, and leave, even with your ships on active sonar while at port (which is generally not done because of the noise it creates).It was done after you entered the harbour. The reason you would not have detected the subs is because they were in transit moving to the region as I originally had them blockading Nova Kajar and slightly north of Bryden. When they arrived they started laying mines when you were in port. Demon's planes would not have detected them because as mentioned in another argument, planes do not detect submarines. Also, you were in harbour. Ships tend to feel safe there as do their crews. Its also very hard for sonar to operate in harbours and docks, as they're filled with ambient noise making passive sonar difficult to listen to.
Now, that being said, all I wanted to say above was that the reason Montague provided is possible. That does not mean that that is what actually happened in this war/battle. I am not sure what's going on, who's where, in and around Jasonia.
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
The answer then is probably not as a mine is not going to register as much of a contact on a sonar - especially if the sonar operator has been ordered to to focus on scouring for any sign of a sub. Probably the first you'll know that you're in an undeclared mine field is when your lead vessel bumps into one.Andreas the Wise wrote:My question was not "can I remove them." I know I need special stuff for that. My question was, "If I'm searching for Monty's fleet and looking for subs especially, would I detect mines before hitting them?"
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
OK, so the subs would have been able to lay them down.
Wikipedia is woefully brief on that particular mine, but I have this
Actually, that shallow water is rather interesting, considering previous canon for these islands is that each island is floating above rather deep water (because they used to be flying and fell into the sea - this is proven because our subs have gone fully under them in archaeological expeditions to reach the motors at the bottom).
But ignoring that, let's say my Guided Missile Destroyer hits the destroyer and has a hole in its hull. As it was so close to port already, it was able to brought back in without sinking and repairs are started, though considered unlikely to make it seaworthy again. Is that suitable damages?
Wikipedia is woefully brief on that particular mine, but I have this
Which if I'm reading it right boils down to "you put it on the bottom in shallow water, the enemy gets near and it explodes."General characteristics
* Type: Submarine-laid bottom mine
* Detection System: Magnetic/seismic/pressure target detection devices (TDDs)
* Dimensions: 485 mm by 4.09 m (19 by 161 in)
* Depth Range: Shallow water
* Weight: 754 kg (1658 lb)
* Explosives: 230 kg (510 lb) high explosive
* Date Deployed: 1987
Actually, that shallow water is rather interesting, considering previous canon for these islands is that each island is floating above rather deep water (because they used to be flying and fell into the sea - this is proven because our subs have gone fully under them in archaeological expeditions to reach the motors at the bottom).
But ignoring that, let's say my Guided Missile Destroyer hits the destroyer and has a hole in its hull. As it was so close to port already, it was able to brought back in without sinking and repairs are started, though considered unlikely to make it seaworthy again. Is that suitable damages?
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Is it too late to mention de-gaussing?
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
I saw it on Wiki, but I didn't know about it before so can't fairly pull it off now. Next war though ...
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
- Lord_Montague
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
Didn't know that part of the story. Considering they were a group of islands I presumed the waters around the island were shallow. My mistake.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
so this is in port?
well in that case unless the ammunition when up you could probably beach the ships or get most of the crew off... ship would be out for the war and need major repairs (Im thinking of the US fleet after pearl harbor)
well in that case unless the ammunition when up you could probably beach the ships or get most of the crew off... ship would be out for the war and need major repairs (Im thinking of the US fleet after pearl harbor)
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
No problem - as I said, my damage offer still stands despite that.Lord_Montague wrote:Didn't know that part of the story. Considering they were a group of islands I presumed the waters around the island were shallow. My mistake.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
- Lord_Montague
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
I didn't quite understand your damages offer....
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Re: Montague vs Andreas
the first ship met with an explosion. it returned back to port, since it had just started. repairs under work, though its out of this war.
the rest of the ships i think returned back to port.
the rest of the ships i think returned back to port.