Montague vs Chrimigules
- Lord_Montague
- Posts: 913
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:39 pm
Montague vs Chrimigules
Case Name: Montague vs Chrimigules
Case Brief: Undeclared abilities in his unit descriptions, godmodding
Evidence:
Furthermore he has godmodded. I fired 22 Aster 30 missiles at his fighters, all of which he claims fell harmlessly into the sea because they were firing at no specific target. That is incorrect as I explicitly declared they were firing at his fighters.
Case Brief: Undeclared abilities in his unit descriptions, godmodding
Evidence:
In the actual narrative of the post, Chrim says his fighters land on the flight decks of the destroyers. These flight decks must be incredibly long as if you view Chrim's orbat and his description of the Viper fighters there is no mention of VTOL capability:Losses: 1 Viper Fighter
Summary:
48 Cruise missiles redirected at the back side of the Lovelian fleet. 24 cruise missiles lock onto the HMLS Jon Bond. 12 cruise missiles lock onto the HMLS Hood. 12 cruise missiles lock onto the HMLS Spexico. Damages as of yet unknown.
Patrol Fighters retreated on the approach of Lovelian F-35s, which unleashed their spread of Meteor missiles upon them. Most Meteor missiles shot down. One Patrol fighter lost. Three successfully land aboard Antican destroyers.
Reserve Fighters on standby to launch. Armed with a mixture of anti-ship and anti-aircraft weaponry.
Antican Destroyers unleash 24-missile barrage against Lovelian F-35s before they get in range to fire their ALARMs. Number of Lovelian F-35s destroyed before they aborted as of yet unknown.
Antican Destroyers lay an artillery barrage upon FOB Airosamente before Foghorn does his aerial drop.
Lovelian Harpoon Missile barrage repulsed.
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In case anyone wishes to dispute the validity of the near successful defense against the Meteor Missiles, or the prevention of the F-35s from firing ALARMs to disable my ships' Radar capabilities, I made sure to do some number crunching, in order to get everything right.
Please note that I never rounded, and I was quite generous with these numbers. Generous to the other side.
I assumed that the Meteor missiles were fired 100 km away, when their current official range (when they finish development and are deployed 4 years from now) is 100+ km. If they were fired from, say, 120 km away, they would have had to traverse a comparatively greater distance themselves while my missiles would only have to have travelled a slightly greater distance. I also assumed that everything was in a straight line, maximizing the distance my Longbow SAMs had to traverse.
Also note that the second case, my Longbow SAMs are only fired once the F-35s came within their ~150 km maximum range. They could have been fired before then, and reach the F-35s further out, perhaps even meeting them at that ~150 km threshold.
In essence, I made it as difficult as possible in these situations for my own defenses to operate in time, while still operating within the confines of flight speed and firing range.
1. Situation: F-35s fire Meteor Missile at Viper fighters on patrol 200km from Antican Destroyers. Viper fighters detect missile launch and retreat at high speed to position of Antican Destroyers. Antican Destroyers defend with Longbow SAM.
Does the Longbow SAM intercept Meteor Missile before Meteor Missile overtakes Viper fighter?
The Longbow SAM needs to close a distance with the Meteor Missile before the Meteor Missile closes distance with the Viper fighter.
Meteor Missile Range: 100 km
Viper fighter Distance to Antican Destroyers: 200 km
Combined Distance: 300 km
Meteor Speed: 4 900.176 km/hr
Viper Speed: 1,931 km/hr
Longbow Speed: 4,287.654 km/hr
Combined Speed A (Meteor + Longbow): 9 187.83 km/hr
Combined Speed B (Meteor - Viper): 2 969.176 km/hr
Distance / (Combined) Speed = Time
At Combined Speed A, 300 km distance closed in:
0.032651888421966884454762441185786 hours =
1.9591133053180130672857464711472 minutes =
117.54679831908078403714478826883 seconds
At Combined Speed B, 100 km distance closed in:
0.033679377712873874771990612883844 hours =
2.0207626627724324863194367730306 minutes =
121.24575976634594917916620638184 seconds
Does the Longbow SAM intercept Meteor Missile before Meteor Missile overtakes Viper fighter?
Yes, but it's very close.
2. Situation: F-35s wants to fire ALARM missiles. Antican Destroyers defend with Longbow Surface-to-Air Missiles.
Longbow SAM Range: ~150 km
ALARM Range: ~93 km
The F-35s enter Longbow SAM range at 150 km, and must traverse another 57 km before being able to fire ALARM missiles. Longbow SAM launches when F-35 enters range (150 km), targetting the fighter.
Does the F-35 reach 93 km distance from the destroyers?
Longbow SAM Range: 150 km
ALARM Range: 93 km
Longbow Speed: 4,287.654 km/hr
F-35 Speed: 1,931 km/hr
Combined Speed: 6218.654 km/hr
Distance / (Combined) Speed = Time
Distance closed in:
0.024120975375057046106762009914042 hours =
1.4472585225034227664057205948425 minutes =
86.835511350205365984343235690553 seconds
The F-35 and the Longbow SAM make contact after 86.8355... seconds
For the Longbow SAM, a flight time of 86.8355... seconds means a flight distance of:103.4223965507648439678425588558 km.
Does the F-35 reach 93 km distance from the destroyers?
No.
P.S. PWNT
If there is no VTOL capability I ask how those fighters can land on a destroyer's flight deck unless it is large, in essence making it an aircraft carrier.Viper mk.IIIb Multirole Fighter
600 points
Manufacturer: AeroTech
Length: 15.37 meters (50.4 ft)
Empty Weight: 14,588 kg (32,161 lb)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 27,200 kg (60,000 lb)
Crew: 1
Armaments:
: 25mm cannon
: 6 external hardpoints
: 4-missile internal capacity
Furthermore he has godmodded. I fired 22 Aster 30 missiles at his fighters, all of which he claims fell harmlessly into the sea because they were firing at no specific target. That is incorrect as I explicitly declared they were firing at his fighters.
In another mode of godmodding, he destroyed ALL the Harpoons (40 in total) fired at him. I find that a bit unbelievable to be honest. He also has told me what my forces have done in attacking, which is godmodding. I decide what my forces do, not my opponent. The best he can do is outline options available to me, not state what my forces have and have not done.Chrim's 11 fighters are located and fired upon by HMLS Tovey and HMLS Warspite using Aster 30 Missiles. Each ship fires a missile for each aircraft.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
- chrimigules
- Posts: 1102
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:04 am
Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
Well, if you really need assistance on the capabilities of my fighters, they're pound for pound modelled upon the F-35B, a VTOL fighter. I also have established In Character that my fighters can land on the landing pad from the very beginning.
My three remaining patrol fighters were all landed on the destroyers (I would have done that in reaction to just the Meteor Missiles being fired). My reserve fighters are on land and way out of range for a 150 kilometer range missile.
As for the Harpoon barrage, you launched an equally sized Tomahawk barrage, through which only 3 Tomahawks got through, and only 2 produced any meaningful damage. And I established that that had been achieved with CIWS and Main Guns only. You did not complain. Firing an identically sized barrage of missiles that fly slower that the Tomahawk, and me stating that I am defending not only with my Main Guns and CIWS guns, but also Longbows and decoys, why should the Harpoons do any better? I didn't describe how it was done in detail because, frankly, I wanted to go to sleep.
My three remaining patrol fighters were all landed on the destroyers (I would have done that in reaction to just the Meteor Missiles being fired). My reserve fighters are on land and way out of range for a 150 kilometer range missile.
As for the Harpoon barrage, you launched an equally sized Tomahawk barrage, through which only 3 Tomahawks got through, and only 2 produced any meaningful damage. And I established that that had been achieved with CIWS and Main Guns only. You did not complain. Firing an identically sized barrage of missiles that fly slower that the Tomahawk, and me stating that I am defending not only with my Main Guns and CIWS guns, but also Longbows and decoys, why should the Harpoons do any better? I didn't describe how it was done in detail because, frankly, I wanted to go to sleep.
Коля лает «гав-гав».
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Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
My two cents:
Also, since Chris mentioned in some posts asking for missile number statistics on the lovelian ships, I suppose one could also ask the missiles and ammunition status for Chris' defense units (like longbows and CIWS and main guns).
Perfectly valid in this particular situation. Chris had mentioned/used these fighters as VTOL capable in a few posts. The issue should have been brought up at that time and not now.Well, if you really need assistance on the capabilities of my fighters, they're pound for pound modeled upon the F-35B, a VTOL fighter. I also have established In Character that my fighters can land on the landing pad from the very beginning.
I was under the same impression that a part of your fighter fleet was on land.My three remaining patrol fighters were all landed on the destroyers (I would have done that in reaction to just the Meteor Missiles being fired). My reserve fighters are on land and way out of range for a 150 kilometer range missile.
Makes sense. This time the defense was with more weapons.As for the Harpoon barrage, you launched an equally sized Tomahawk barrage, through which only 3 Tomahawks got through, and only 2 produced any meaningful damage. And I established that that had been achieved with CIWS and Main Guns only. You did not complain. Firing an identically sized barrage of missiles that fly slower that the Tomahawk, and me stating that I am defending not only with my Main Guns and CIWS guns, but also Longbows and decoys, why should the Harpoons do any better?
This issue I suppose is still left unanswered by Chris.Furthermore he has godmodded. I fired 22 Aster 30 missiles at his fighters, all of which he claims fell harmlessly into the sea because they were firing at no specific target. That is incorrect as I explicitly declared they were firing at his fighters.
Also, since Chris mentioned in some posts asking for missile number statistics on the lovelian ships, I suppose one could also ask the missiles and ammunition status for Chris' defense units (like longbows and CIWS and main guns).
- chrimigules
- Posts: 1102
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:04 am
Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
Well, me saying that his Aster 30 missiles didn't hit anything because the targets were not there is akin to him saying that my Javelin missiles were going in the wrong direction, because his fleet wasn't really there, but wouldn't let me undo the missile launch.
EDIT: I will quote what Montague had said in that instance:
EDIT: I will quote what Montague had said in that instance:
EDIT2: I've been keeping track of how many missiles I have left in a text file, but I'll go back through all of my posts and reverify the numbers. Later. Today's my first day of classes, so I'll be a little preoccupied.Personally, I think you should get on with the fact you got duped and chose a wrong option.
Коля лает «гав-гав».
- Lord_Montague
- Posts: 913
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:39 pm
Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
Its not alike at all. You stated that you had a flight of aircraft flying over your fleet. I targeted them and fired at them. Now those fighters were there as you stated they flew away from my AA volley from my JSFs. That makes it different from your Javelin strike as my fleet genuinely wasn't there.
And also again, you've got your positions on my fleet wrong again. Its coming from the West, not the North. I could have used that against you but alas, I'm not getting THAT petty.
And also again, you've got your positions on my fleet wrong again. Its coming from the West, not the North. I could have used that against you but alas, I'm not getting THAT petty.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
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Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
oh the issues of fighting when you cant actually see your enemy...
and i hope were not on our way back to stopping/launching barrages of 400+ missiles...
and i hope were not on our way back to stopping/launching barrages of 400+ missiles...
- chrimigules
- Posts: 1102
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:04 am
- Lord_Montague
- Posts: 913
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:39 pm
Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
But alas no comment on the Aster 30 missile situation. I would have appreciated one on that Chrim.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
- chrimigules
- Posts: 1102
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:04 am
Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
You mean, like that one?chrimigules wrote:Well, me saying that his Aster 30 missiles didn't hit anything because the targets were not there is akin to him saying that my Javelin missiles were going in the wrong direction, because his fleet wasn't really there, but wouldn't let me undo the missile launch.
EDIT: I will quote what Montague had said in that instance:Personally, I think you should get on with the fact you got duped and chose a wrong option.
Коля лает «гав-гав».
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Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
But you did say you had fighters.
1. You said only some were inland.
2. You used those fighters as an argument (see your math for instance) to show how you took no damages from other missiles.
3. You even took one Viper as a damage.
So, you still have to explain those Aster missiles somehow. Unless, I am not seeing something here.
1. You said only some were inland.
2. You used those fighters as an argument (see your math for instance) to show how you took no damages from other missiles.
3. You even took one Viper as a damage.
So, you still have to explain those Aster missiles somehow. Unless, I am not seeing something here.
- chrimigules
- Posts: 1102
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:04 am
Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
I took one fighter loss from the Meteor Missiles.
What I had said about the positioning of my fighters was that I had a patrol of four fighters, and that all other fighters were landed as a reserve.
What I had said about the positioning of my fighters was that I had a patrol of four fighters, and that all other fighters were landed as a reserve.
Коля лает «гав-гав».
- chrimigules
- Posts: 1102
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:04 am
Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
New Complaint
Montague's ships have done things which they were not stated to be capable of doing.
HMLS Triton and HMLS Trident are of the Lovelian "Triton Class"
http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=36.0
Which lists as its missile-based armaments: 1 SeaDart launcher and 80 VLS tubes
HMLS Warspite and HMLS Tovey are of the Lovelian "Type 45L Class"
http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=41.0
Which is stated to be a modified British Type 45 Class Destroyer.
Missle-based armaments include 1 SeaDart launcher (a modification) and 48-cell VLS specifically for Aster Missiles.
I did not count the missiles that were fired from reloadable launchers, i.e. the SeaDart Missiles, nor did I count the Aster Missiles. I counted Tomahawk Missiles and Harpoon Missiles. These missiles have no otherwise stated method of being launched from these four ships other than VLS.
HMLS Triton and HMLS Trident are established as having 80 VLS tubes and thus can fire 80 missiles. They each have fired 93.
HMLS Warspite and HMLS Tovey are established as having VLS tubes only for Aster missiles and none for non Aster type missiles. They each have fired 43 non Aster type missiles.
Montague, please explain.
Montague's ships have done things which they were not stated to be capable of doing.
HMLS Triton and HMLS Trident are of the Lovelian "Triton Class"
http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=36.0
Which lists as its missile-based armaments: 1 SeaDart launcher and 80 VLS tubes
HMLS Warspite and HMLS Tovey are of the Lovelian "Type 45L Class"
http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=41.0
Which is stated to be a modified British Type 45 Class Destroyer.
Missle-based armaments include 1 SeaDart launcher (a modification) and 48-cell VLS specifically for Aster Missiles.
I did not count the missiles that were fired from reloadable launchers, i.e. the SeaDart Missiles, nor did I count the Aster Missiles. I counted Tomahawk Missiles and Harpoon Missiles. These missiles have no otherwise stated method of being launched from these four ships other than VLS.
HMLS Triton and HMLS Trident are established as having 80 VLS tubes and thus can fire 80 missiles. They each have fired 93.
HMLS Warspite and HMLS Tovey are established as having VLS tubes only for Aster missiles and none for non Aster type missiles. They each have fired 43 non Aster type missiles.
Montague, please explain.
Last edited by chrimigules on Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Коля лает «гав-гав».
- chrimigules
- Posts: 1102
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:04 am
Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
Oh right, evidence.
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http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39029#p39029
HMLS Trident: 8
HMLS Warspite: 2
HMLS Tovey: 2
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39106#p39106
HMLS Trident: 40 [48 total]
HMLS Warspite: 15 [17 total]
HMLS Tovey: 15 [17 total]
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39368#p39368
HMLS Trident: 10 [58 total]
HMLS Warspite: 10 [27 total]
HMLS Tovey: 10 [27 total]
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39883#p39883
HMLS Trident: 20 [78 total]
HMLS Warspite: 16 [43 total]
HMLS Tovey: 16 [43 total]
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40105#p40105
HMLS Trident: 15 [93 total]
------------
It's a good thing I bothered to pose the question.
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http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39029#p39029
HMLS Triton: 88 Tomahawks each fired from HMLS Triton and HMLS Trident at Antican fleet.
2 Tomahawks each fired from HMLS Warspite and HMLS Tovey at Antican fleet. These remaining four are set to sea-skimming mode.
HMLS Trident: 8
HMLS Warspite: 2
HMLS Tovey: 2
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39106#p39106
HMLS Triton: 40 [48 total]HMLS Triton fires 40 Harpoon Block III missiles at Enyo
HMLS Trident fires 40 Harpoon Block III missiles at ThoÅsa
HMLS Warspite fires 15 Harpoon Block III missiles at ThoÅsa
HMLS Tovey fires 15 Harpoon Block III missiles at Galēnē
HMLS Trident: 40 [48 total]
HMLS Warspite: 15 [17 total]
HMLS Tovey: 15 [17 total]
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39368#p39368
HMLS Triton: 10 [58 total]HMLS Triton fires 10 Tomahawk missiles at Andreas forces located at Uras Boros (that is right isn't it? If not I'll amend)
HMLS Trident fires 10 Tomahawk missiles at the Omen.
HMLS Warspite fires 10 Tomahawk missiles at the Omen.
HMLS Tovey fires 10 Tomahawk missiles at the Omen.
HMLS Trident: 10 [58 total]
HMLS Warspite: 10 [27 total]
HMLS Tovey: 10 [27 total]
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39883#p39883
HMLS Warspite fires 16 Tomahawk Cruise missiles, evenly split between Chrims' 4 destroyers. They are on sea-skimming approach.
HMLS Trident fires 20 Tomahawk Cruise missiles, 16 aimed at Braden's land forces with half carrying anti-personnel submunitions and half anti-vehicle submuntions. The remaining four missiles are aimed at Chrims' ships.
HMLS Triton: 20 [78 total]HMLS Tovey fires 16 Tomahawk Cruise missiles, evenly split between Chrims' 4 destroyers. They are on sea-skimming approach.
HMLS Triton fires 20 Tomahawk Cruise missiles, 16 aimed at Braden's land forces with half carrying anti-personnel submunitions and half anti-vehicle submuntions. The remaining four missiles are aimed at Chrims' ships.
HMLS Trident: 20 [78 total]
HMLS Warspite: 16 [43 total]
HMLS Tovey: 16 [43 total]
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40105#p40105
HMLS Triton: 15 [93 total]HMLS Triton fires off 15 Harpoons at DÅtÅ
HMLS Trident fires off 15 Harpoons at Halimēdē
HMLS Trident: 15 [93 total]
------------
It's a good thing I bothered to pose the question.
Коля лает «гав-гав».
- Lord_Montague
- Posts: 913
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:39 pm
Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
But you still haven't accounted for those Aster 30 missiles that were incoming at your fighters. You should have greater losses as a result.chrimigules wrote:I took one fighter loss from the Meteor Missiles.
What I had said about the positioning of my fighters was that I had a patrol of four fighters, and that all other fighters were landed as a reserve.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
- Lord_Montague
- Posts: 913
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:39 pm
Re: Montague vs Chrimigules
They were reloaded by supply ship.chrimigules wrote:New Complaint
Montague's ships have done things which they were not stated to be capable of doing.
HMLS Triton and HMLS Trident are of the Lovelian "Triton Class"
http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=36.0
Which lists as its missile-based armaments: 1 SeaDart launcher and 80 VLS tubes
HMLS Warspite and HMLS Tovey are of the Lovelian "Type 45L Class"
http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=41.0
Which is stated to be a modified British Type 45 Class Destroyer.
Missle-based armaments include 1 SeaDart launcher (a modification) and 48-cell VLS specifically for Aster Missiles.
I did not count the missiles that were fired from reloadable launchers, i.e. the SeaDart Missiles, nor did I count the Aster Missiles. I counted Tomahawk Missiles and Harpoon Missiles. These missiles have no otherwise stated method of being launched from these four ships other than VLS.
HMLS Triton and HMLS Trident are established as having 80 VLS tubes and thus can fire 80 missiles. They each have fired 93.
HMLS Warspite and HMLS Tovey are established as having VLS tubes only for Aster missiles and none for non Aster type missiles. They each have fired 43 non Aster type missiles.
Montague, please explain.
There are previous occasions in previous wars in which those types of missile have been fired from Type 45L Destroyers. I didn't anticipate when writing the brief on the Admiral Class that the RN wouldnt have their Type 45s capable of firing harpoons and tomahawks.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.