Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
- Lord_Montague
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
I'm sorry but its not sanctioning him at every move. Its perfectly reasonable and if you must know I've sanctioned him and asked him to change things before i.e the Chemical weapon he used. Extreme PM's both Vilhelm and I asking whether what he can do is legal etc and both Vilhelm and I endeavour to give him a response. If its not, we tell him so. If it is, we tell him so. If we think he's seeking judicial help, we tell him to do it publically.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
Not that I'm an expert on such matters, but I think that was a little childish monty, and very uninformed.Roman wrote: I admit I'm a NOOB and I have no respect for my betters!!! I'm sorry for being such a NOOB I just can't help it.
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
*sigh*
I agree with all this stuff, but our side really should lay off extreme and Monty unless they do really bad things. It is a recwar after all.
I agree with all this stuff, but our side really should lay off extreme and Monty unless they do really bad things. It is a recwar after all.
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
Yes, I'll be the first to admit I don't bother looking in detail through opponents orbats unless I have to fight them, expecting others on my side to pick up major military flaws, but meh. Now's the time for me to protest.Lord_Montague wrote:Kingdom of Lovely Taskforce 2:
HMLS Behemoth - 10,000 points.
1st Armoured Division - http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=82.0 - 5,000 points.
- 1st Armoured Cavalry - 30 Lovely Challenger Tanks- 1500 points
- 1st Light Cavalry - 60 Lovely Warrior IFVs - 2400 points
- Armoured Detachment of King's Artillery - 25 AS-90s - 625 points
- Armoured Anti-Air Detachment of King's Artillery - 10 ALVIS HVMs - 200 points
- 1st Guard Regiment, Newtonian Infantry - http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=81.0 - 725 Infantrymen.
The 1st East Division - http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=61.0 - 5,000 points
2nd Guards Regiment - 1,000 Infantry men - 1,000 points.
3rd Guard Regiment - 1,000 Infantry men - 1,000 points.
1st Spexican Rangers - 1,000 Infantry men - 1,000 points.
Detachment of L-SAS - http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=92.0- 250 men - 500 points.
Kings Artillery Battery No.1 - http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=91.0 - 50 L118 Artillery guns, 25 MLRS systems - 1,000 points.
King's Artillery Anti-Air Battery - 25 Rapier Anti-Air Defence Systems, 5 THEL systems, 5 Patriot Missile Batteries. - 500 points.
Air and Naval Support Force - 5,000 points
HMLS Reblet - Type 23L Dignatory Class - http://ninetyone.org/lovely/smf/index.php?topic=46.0 - 1,000 points.
HMLS KGV - Type 45L Admiral Class - see previous orbat - 1,250 points
3 Harrier G.R 9 - 400 points each
10 Apache Helicopters - 75 each.
12 Lnyx Attack helicopters - 65 each and can also carry troops as well as rockets and guns etc.
1st Armoured Division is 5000 points, apparently. Add it up. I get 4725, then I come to "725 infantry". There's no points there, so assumedly these are basic infantry, at cost one. That'd make it 5450 - so where do the extra 450 points come from, or are those infantry super weak?
Can you explain what you're costing individual units at in this set:
King's Artillery Anti-Air Battery - 25 Rapier Anti-Air Defence Systems, 5 THEL systems, 5 Patriot Missile Batteries. - 500 points.
(Sakat I hate it when people lump units and cost them together). I see 35 AA type things there, for a total cost of 500 points. 500/35=14.2 AA are at least 20. So I'm wondering what you're costing them sas. (I'd expect the 25 Rapier alone are worth 500 points).
Finally, your Harriers. By costing them at 400 each, I'm assuming they're considerably weaker than normal fighters, and will be used as such?
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
Since I saw this now, I might as well reply to help.
I too get a total of 5450. Someone from Lovely should explain that.1st Armoured Division is 5000 points, apparently. Add it up. I get 4725, then I come to "725 infantry". There's no points there, so assumedly these are basic infantry, at cost one. That'd make it 5450 - so where do the extra 450 points come from, or are those infantry super weak?
I haven't looked at individual systems (ie, haven't wikied it all). But, an armored anti-air is 20 in the convention. So, hopefully someone will explain the difference or the individual points for each.King's Artillery Anti-Air Battery - 25 Rapier Anti-Air Defence Systems, 5 THEL systems, 5 Patriot Missile Batteries. - 500 points.
(Sakat I hate it when people lump units and cost them together). I see 35 AA type things there, for a total cost of 500 points. 500/35=14.2 AA are at least 20. So I'm wondering what you're costing them sas. (I'd expect the 25 Rapier alone are worth 500 points).
The convention has Eurofighters as normal fighters. By that accounts, a Harrier is definitely a bit weaker. That being said, if a Eurofighter and a Harrier engage each other, points count for little. It will boil down to who has an advantage at a given stage in the air battle. A eurofighter with harrier in its tail can have as many points as it wants, but its gonna have a high chance of being shot down.Finally, your Harriers. By costing them at 400 each, I'm assuming they're considerably weaker than normal fighters, and will be used as such?
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
There are 3 fighters. It's not gonna matter. They will be shot down.
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
Thanks Extreme
However, points has come to evolve into what it is in Anunia - clearly showing strength. Points DO matter, and should be taken into account in a battle (how often do we determine who's on who's tail if both start by launching at eachother anyway?). Anunia is NOT a recwar charter that uses points in some general sense to get similiar size armies, and then goes off unit capabilities. Points are the units strength. Even if I describe my one cost infantry as highly trained elite fighters, and Gman just posts he has cost 3 marines, his marines are going to be considerably better. That's the point of points.
ADB didn't do this - ADB just had units cost, and then went off their real world capabilities. In Anunia though, we go offer unit's strength, and so, all else being even, strength/points win. (I know your example was one where strategy comes into play and it's not 'all else being even' but I've picked up this 'points aren't important' attitude elsewhere in the war and wanted to stress this point).
This is one difference in recwar style I'm not sure you've picked up. Originally, Scott tells me, SNARL was created to very vaugely work out costs - in the sense that if one person's full orbat was 10 ships, and the other's 5, then each of the 5 ships were twice as good as one of the ten ships.extreme007 wrote:The convention has Eurofighters as normal fighters. By that accounts, a Harrier is definitely a bit weaker. That being said, if a Eurofighter and a Harrier engage each other, points count for little. It will boil down to who has an advantage at a given stage in the air battle. A eurofighter with harrier in its tail can have as many points as it wants, but its gonna have a high chance of being shot down.Finally, your Harriers. By costing them at 400 each, I'm assuming they're considerably weaker than normal fighters, and will be used as such?
However, points has come to evolve into what it is in Anunia - clearly showing strength. Points DO matter, and should be taken into account in a battle (how often do we determine who's on who's tail if both start by launching at eachother anyway?). Anunia is NOT a recwar charter that uses points in some general sense to get similiar size armies, and then goes off unit capabilities. Points are the units strength. Even if I describe my one cost infantry as highly trained elite fighters, and Gman just posts he has cost 3 marines, his marines are going to be considerably better. That's the point of points.
ADB didn't do this - ADB just had units cost, and then went off their real world capabilities. In Anunia though, we go offer unit's strength, and so, all else being even, strength/points win. (I know your example was one where strategy comes into play and it's not 'all else being even' but I've picked up this 'points aren't important' attitude elsewhere in the war and wanted to stress this point).
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
By the "points aren't important" phrase, what we (me and montague, i know what discussion you are referring to andreas) meant is that some people (i dont know who right now as i type) have been posting things like, "my ten aircrafts have 1000 points. while your ten aircrafts have 600 points. so i'll take X damages, you take Y." rather than actually coming up with a decent battle action posts. It doesn't matter if after the battle action, the eventual results end up being X and Y. It would be nice to see battle action posts, rather than just throwing number of points at each other and saying "yay. i win!"
Another example (not sure if this happened in this war or not):
You send all your 25 fighters at my unit, which has 15 fighters, 2 destroyers and a carrier. I would hate to see you say, "my 25 fighters are 2000 points each, compared to your 15 fighters at 1200 points. so, i lose 10 fighters, while you lose 15."
Because, while my 15 fighters are indeed lower valued, they are protected by 2 destroyers and a carrier, plus some strategy. I am just using an example here to point out that points aren't the end-all-be-all.
Even Israel managed to destroy close to 400 (out of 957) aircrafts for a loss of 46 (out of 300) aircrafts with strategies. The aircrafts were roughly evenly matched.
That being said, I also don't mean that strategies are the end-all-be-all either. And that points to make up for something.
I don't care how successful, surprising, superior, advanced (etc.. etc..) the strategies employed by Montague's aircrafts are, they are NOT going to be able to take down the Omen ! (well, unless off course if its Luke Skywalker and the Death Star... and that too Luke knows the weakness of the Death Star... and Death Star didn't offer as much defense as Omen probably would!)
Another example (not sure if this happened in this war or not):
You send all your 25 fighters at my unit, which has 15 fighters, 2 destroyers and a carrier. I would hate to see you say, "my 25 fighters are 2000 points each, compared to your 15 fighters at 1200 points. so, i lose 10 fighters, while you lose 15."
Because, while my 15 fighters are indeed lower valued, they are protected by 2 destroyers and a carrier, plus some strategy. I am just using an example here to point out that points aren't the end-all-be-all.
Even Israel managed to destroy close to 400 (out of 957) aircrafts for a loss of 46 (out of 300) aircrafts with strategies. The aircrafts were roughly evenly matched.
That being said, I also don't mean that strategies are the end-all-be-all either. And that points to make up for something.
I don't care how successful, surprising, superior, advanced (etc.. etc..) the strategies employed by Montague's aircrafts are, they are NOT going to be able to take down the Omen ! (well, unless off course if its Luke Skywalker and the Death Star... and that too Luke knows the weakness of the Death Star... and Death Star didn't offer as much defense as Omen probably would!)
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
Strategy is good. But what can your average micronationalist do? Not all of us play current tech RTS's. I know what planes do, but I don't have any kind of knowledge of aircraft strategy apart from bombers beat everything if there are no fighters/AA. And I'm sure you'll find a way to disprove that.
What it's meant to be is that after strategy or if there is no strategy, thats when it comes down to points. A bomber fighting two fighters is equal points. The bomber would be damaged, but it should still have a chance to escape. Just because it can't fight back doesn't mean it's defenceless. If they keep following it, sure, they'll blow it into oblivion. But they don't get instant strikes that send it spiralling into the ground.
What it's meant to be is that after strategy or if there is no strategy, thats when it comes down to points. A bomber fighting two fighters is equal points. The bomber would be damaged, but it should still have a chance to escape. Just because it can't fight back doesn't mean it's defenceless. If they keep following it, sure, they'll blow it into oblivion. But they don't get instant strikes that send it spiralling into the ground.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
Sorry, that was me, didn't realise Andreas was still logged in.
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
What?Nicholas the Mad wrote:Sorry, that was me, didn't realise Andreas was still logged in.
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
He's my brother. We generally both leave ourselves logged in on whatever computer we were on last. I didn't realise Andreas was still logged into MCS, so I posted under his name accidentally.
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
First time you've done that, Nick (I've done it several times to him on Novatainia).
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
- Lord_Montague
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
Maths has never been my strongpoint lol
I think it should be rounded down to the remaining points cost. Is that 125 or 225?
As for anti-air, those types of anti-air are classed as towed artillery as they're not armoured or capable of moving without assistance from a truck etc. If you look at what units I showed as an example of armoured anti-air, they're self propelled and slightly armoured.
Harriers are subsonic fighters hence the evaluation at 400.
I think it should be rounded down to the remaining points cost. Is that 125 or 225?
As for anti-air, those types of anti-air are classed as towed artillery as they're not armoured or capable of moving without assistance from a truck etc. If you look at what units I showed as an example of armoured anti-air, they're self propelled and slightly armoured.
Harriers are subsonic fighters hence the evaluation at 400.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
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Re: Anti-Nelagan side Orbats
725-450 = 275 Infantry
Planes - that's fine
Planes - that's fine
So you're saying all of these are towed AA? I had the impression the Rapier and Patriot things were rather good, and as such, worth considerably more than 10 (more like 20-25).King's Artillery Anti-Air Battery - 25 Rapier Anti-Air Defence Systems, 5 THEL systems, 5 Patriot Missile Batteries. - 500 points.
(Sakat I hate it when people lump units and cost them together). I see 35 AA type things there, for a total cost of 500 points. 500/35=14.2 AA are at least 20. So I'm wondering what you're costing them sas. (I'd expect the 25 Rapier alone are worth 500 points).
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander