Pre War Conditions
Moderator: Staff
-
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:34 pm
- Location: Novatainia
- Contact:
Pre War Conditions
To try and avoid disputes happening later, Anunia requires a number of conditions to be agreed on before the war begins. Participants are then obligated to follow what they agreed to during the war. (for example, if you agreed to wager land, then you have to give up that land if you lose; but if you agreed no land would be wagered, then you don't).
To keep this thread from becoming a spam argument, I suggest only Ardashir and Max post for Ashkenatza (as person who understands Anunia most, and Leader) and only Montague and Kovac post for Ocia (for the same reasons).
Allowed technology level?
Is magic allowed?
Are nuclear weapons allowed?
Are chemical weapons allowed?
Are biological weapons allowed?
Any modifications to the existing ruleset? (you may need to include the missile modification as a modification to the existing ruleset if it takes too long to pass officially)
What is the end date for the war? (after the end date, either side can ask the judge to force the end of the war and draw up a settlement based on how each side is doing at that point).
What are you risking? (land, currency, technology etc)
A note on the last question. Agree beforehand exactly what is being offered as potential war gains. For example, since the fight is over Amokolia in Benacia, Ocia might say that if it loses, it's willing to cede all their territory on Benacia, but not anywhere else (so even if people invaded Directus, Ocia could not lose that land after the war). Ashkenatza might similarly offer some of their land on Benacia, but not their land on Eura nor the area around their capital etc.
You also need to agree who can win the land. Can only people who offered land win it? Or could, for example, Shireroth enter the war, risk nothing, and yet win a slice of Amokolia if Shireroth's on the winning side? Could, for example, Universalis enter and be able to win the other part of Leng, and only risk their part of Leng etc ...
I'll leave you to it.
To keep this thread from becoming a spam argument, I suggest only Ardashir and Max post for Ashkenatza (as person who understands Anunia most, and Leader) and only Montague and Kovac post for Ocia (for the same reasons).
So in summary, you need to agree on the following:II. Politics
A. Any Member who can provide two opposing sides may submit a declaration of war to the Convention. Wars should be provided with their own forums as soon as possible. The war may either be held on a forum mutually agreed by both sides, such as a national forum, or on a suitably impartial forum such as MCS.
B. Declarations of war must contain the fictional parameters of the war, such as what technology level is allowed, whether or not to allow magic, whether or not to allow nuclear weapons, and any modifications to standard Convention rules. They must also contain an end date. Where the parameters for the war are not defined, it is assumed that Nuclear Weapons, Chemical Weapons, Biological Weapons and Magic are banned, and that any technology used must be in use (or have been in use) in real world military operations, and sufficient data must be obtained about its specifications. Where magic is used, it will be fought under the NCM system. The assumed end date, if not defined, is one month from the commencement of fighting.
C. A declaration of war must also contain acceptable outcomes in terms of real assets lost or gained. Nations can choose to engage in Convention wars without any actual results or can choose to gamble territory, currency, military technology or some other incentive upon the outcome. Where the real asset losses are not defined at the start of the war, no assets can be lost based on the outcome of the war unless the losing nation agrees. Anything stolen that exists [was specifically mentioned before the war, eg a national building; compare to an individual’s cell phone] and was not included in the list of gambled assets at the start of the war must be returned - only knowledge recorded in the memory of the in-character war participants may be kept without the other nation's agreement.
D. Belligerent parties can include nations, organizations, and individuals. Once a war has started, no new belligerent party may join except at the invitation of a belligerent party already participating. See section IV.O for details on where they can start.
E. Once a nation is involved in a war, it cannot leave the war until it has signed a peace treaty with every nation it was formerly at war with, either separately or all together. The peace treaty may have any terms that the parties negotiating will agree upon. Non-national belligerent parties may leave the war whenever they wish.
F. At any time, a nation that wants to leave the war can surrender, in which case they lose everything they offered in Step C but are considered at peace with the opposing nations. At that point, Convention rules are considered to be no longer in force. At any time past the end-date of a war, if the war is still going on a nation that wants to leave it can ask the Judge for a forced peace, in which the Judge drafts what he considers a fair peace treaty based on the progress of the war thus far and forces both parties to sign it. No force peace will take more from either side than they offered in Step C.
G. When all nations have made peace with each other, or when the conflict has become inactive, the war is considered closed.
Allowed technology level?
Is magic allowed?
Are nuclear weapons allowed?
Are chemical weapons allowed?
Are biological weapons allowed?
Any modifications to the existing ruleset? (you may need to include the missile modification as a modification to the existing ruleset if it takes too long to pass officially)
What is the end date for the war? (after the end date, either side can ask the judge to force the end of the war and draw up a settlement based on how each side is doing at that point).
What are you risking? (land, currency, technology etc)
A note on the last question. Agree beforehand exactly what is being offered as potential war gains. For example, since the fight is over Amokolia in Benacia, Ocia might say that if it loses, it's willing to cede all their territory on Benacia, but not anywhere else (so even if people invaded Directus, Ocia could not lose that land after the war). Ashkenatza might similarly offer some of their land on Benacia, but not their land on Eura nor the area around their capital etc.
You also need to agree who can win the land. Can only people who offered land win it? Or could, for example, Shireroth enter the war, risk nothing, and yet win a slice of Amokolia if Shireroth's on the winning side? Could, for example, Universalis enter and be able to win the other part of Leng, and only risk their part of Leng etc ...
I'll leave you to it.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
Re: Pre War Conditions
As I have repeatedly stated, Ashkenatza's primary interest in this scenario is her security.
To this end, our primary goal is to ensure that not a single square metre of Benacia remains Ocian- as such, we are willing to support the nascent Amokolian independence movement and are even willing for Ocia to fully withdraw and have her lands in Benacia become simply unclaimed territory. We have no interest in Ocia's Keltian or Apollonian territories.
In terms of territorial gains, Ashkenatza desires that her province of Izaria be extended northwards to reach the northern Benacian coast, and that the Benaciastadt salient be transferred to Ashkenatzi Sovereignty. We would also like to see a transfer of some South-Eastern Amokolian lands to Elwynnese control (for either Shirereithan or Ashkenatzi Elw), and some minor frontier rectifications to Zaprogia.
Nuclear and biological technology should not be allowed simply because not only do I believe it's immoral to simulate the effects of such weaponry in a recreational hobby such as Micronationalism, but also that such weaponry leads to a war of attrition which doesn't allow for the activity generating atmosphere RecWars create.
Furthermore, the use of nuclear and biological technology negates all real skill at RecWarring and substitutes it for a childish 'I've got bigger bombs than you' scenario which simply doesn't belong in a civilised and mutually respectful simulation.
I suggest the end date be at the very latest the 1st of September.
And just how will you deal with this if Shirereithan or Babkhan forces join? Will they be restricted to two commanders as well?
To this end, our primary goal is to ensure that not a single square metre of Benacia remains Ocian- as such, we are willing to support the nascent Amokolian independence movement and are even willing for Ocia to fully withdraw and have her lands in Benacia become simply unclaimed territory. We have no interest in Ocia's Keltian or Apollonian territories.
In terms of territorial gains, Ashkenatza desires that her province of Izaria be extended northwards to reach the northern Benacian coast, and that the Benaciastadt salient be transferred to Ashkenatzi Sovereignty. We would also like to see a transfer of some South-Eastern Amokolian lands to Elwynnese control (for either Shirereithan or Ashkenatzi Elw), and some minor frontier rectifications to Zaprogia.
Nuclear and biological technology should not be allowed simply because not only do I believe it's immoral to simulate the effects of such weaponry in a recreational hobby such as Micronationalism, but also that such weaponry leads to a war of attrition which doesn't allow for the activity generating atmosphere RecWars create.
Furthermore, the use of nuclear and biological technology negates all real skill at RecWarring and substitutes it for a childish 'I've got bigger bombs than you' scenario which simply doesn't belong in a civilised and mutually respectful simulation.
I suggest the end date be at the very latest the 1st of September.
I'd debate this. I know Kovac will start accusing me of wanting to 'preserve numerical superiority' or some other inane nonsense, but how can you apply this across the board without being grossly unfair? Ashkenatza has at least twice the activity levels of Ocia, and probably twice the number of willing people to engage in a RecWar on these fora.To keep this thread from becoming a spam argument, I suggest only Ardashir and Max post for Ashkenatza...and only Montague and Kovac post for Ocia (for the same reasons)
And just how will you deal with this if Shirereithan or Babkhan forces join? Will they be restricted to two commanders as well?
Re: Pre War Conditions
I completely agree as per Maximos' second point - such an approach is utterly unacceptable. The respective forces of each countries' military must be considered, and thus, so must their active citizens.
Re: Pre War Conditions
I agree completely also. The Ashkenatzim side has much more land and much more people.
-
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:49 am
Re: Pre War Conditions
I made all important notices in the this open letter:
http://ociagov.proboards.com/index.cgi? ... 324&page=1
http://ociagov.proboards.com/index.cgi? ... 324&page=1
-
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:34 pm
- Location: Novatainia
- Contact:
Re: Pre War Conditions
Once again, Max, it appears you've misunderstood me. I merely meant it would be best to restrict the number of people offering their two cents in this thread - of course in the recwar you would have as many as you want
Now, you both seem to agree that for no nukes/chemical/bio weapons - that's standard, just putting it out there. Neither of you seem to have offerred your own land up, however - Max, you've said you want Ocia off Benacia if you win; and Kovac, you've said you'll never surrender or make concessions. I think you're saying that you aren't willing to offer any Ocian land up for possible loss. So are you both saying that whoever wins the war, no land will change hands? If not, you need to specify which of your own lands you'll offer in the obviously unlikely event that you lose.
Now, you both seem to agree that for no nukes/chemical/bio weapons - that's standard, just putting it out there. Neither of you seem to have offerred your own land up, however - Max, you've said you want Ocia off Benacia if you win; and Kovac, you've said you'll never surrender or make concessions. I think you're saying that you aren't willing to offer any Ocian land up for possible loss. So are you both saying that whoever wins the war, no land will change hands? If not, you need to specify which of your own lands you'll offer in the obviously unlikely event that you lose.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
Re: Pre War Conditions
I'll have to run that past the Knesset (seeing as we're a democracy, Matt)- but it'll most likely be our new Euran Territories, Mahoz HaSefardim.
You forget that Ashkenatza is also fighting with Amokolian Independence for Jess's Government-in-Exile in mind.
Knowing that Matt will never swallow his pride and give lands up, a successful expulsion of Ocia from Benacia will result in a independent, yet quite small, Amokolia operating as a client state to Ashkenatza, whilst Ashkenatza occupies the Benaciastadt salient and some other minor territories I mentioned.
This is essentially, in spirit or in strength, the Micran community's telling Ocia they're fed up and sick of its behaviour.
If Ocia can't even play fair in a RecWar and specify lands to surrender, then she's just increasing her bad image.
I call on Kovac to behave in a mature and reasonable manner and specify what he'll sacrifice if he loses.
Besides, seeing as he's so sure he'll win, then there won't be a problem, will there...?
You forget that Ashkenatza is also fighting with Amokolian Independence for Jess's Government-in-Exile in mind.
Knowing that Matt will never swallow his pride and give lands up, a successful expulsion of Ocia from Benacia will result in a independent, yet quite small, Amokolia operating as a client state to Ashkenatza, whilst Ashkenatza occupies the Benaciastadt salient and some other minor territories I mentioned.
This is essentially, in spirit or in strength, the Micran community's telling Ocia they're fed up and sick of its behaviour.
If Ocia can't even play fair in a RecWar and specify lands to surrender, then she's just increasing her bad image.
I call on Kovac to behave in a mature and reasonable manner and specify what he'll sacrifice if he loses.
Besides, seeing as he's so sure he'll win, then there won't be a problem, will there...?
-
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:49 am
Re: Pre War Conditions
As I essentially said in my government statement, Ocia is the most free nation on Micras and if Amokolia wants to leave it is completely their prerogative (I completely anticipated their departure however I thought it would be at a later date, oh well I don't really care), we have absolutely no desire to defend Amokolia the land of traitors and opportunists and at no point was it declared that we would reject the wishes of the Amokolians. I put up all Dependencies/ Colonies up for grabs.
Ashkenatza's Irredentist tactics can only remind me of that of the Nazi's during world war two considering how they have already proudly announced their animal like behaviour and abuses of human rights in their initial actions of the war, and have now vowed to 'liberate' territories which have never been oppressed and have always been free to leave. I assure you the Ashkenatzi scum will follow the same fate of the fascists over a half a century ago.
Ashkenatza's Irredentist tactics can only remind me of that of the Nazi's during world war two considering how they have already proudly announced their animal like behaviour and abuses of human rights in their initial actions of the war, and have now vowed to 'liberate' territories which have never been oppressed and have always been free to leave. I assure you the Ashkenatzi scum will follow the same fate of the fascists over a half a century ago.
- Guido Zambelis
- Posts: 2854
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:26 pm
Re: Pre War Conditions
Please can we just get on with this war, I can't take any more ignorant Nazi-filled rants.
-
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:33 am
- Contact:
Re: Pre War Conditions
Since Kovac seems to want so badly to fight perceived Nazis, why don't we thematically set this war in the '30's/'40's (as far as technology goes)?
-
- Posts: 895
- Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:36 pm
Re: Pre War Conditions
1. Who the fuck chose the name for the war?
2. Here is my best guess at the answer to your questions, Andreas, which stand a great chance of contradicting everything Max has said because I haven't got round to reading his posts yet:
2. Here is my best guess at the answer to your questions, Andreas, which stand a great chance of contradicting everything Max has said because I haven't got round to reading his posts yet:
3. Can we please leave the petty nationalist background noise to the in character posts, as being called a fascist dog every second post will probably detract from working out the technical detail.a. Allowed technology level? Contemporary, as this will save me the irritation of redesigning things
b. Is magic allowed? No.
c. Are nuclear weapons allowed? No, I want some form of human life to still be around at the end.
d. Are chemical weapons allowed? Are we allowed this option? If so - yes fantastic, somebody get me a points quote on mustard gas.
e. Are biological weapons allowed? No, I want some form of human life to still be around at the end.
f. Any modifications to the existing ruleset? (you may need to include the missile modification as a modification to the existing ruleset if it takes too long to pass officially)
g. What is the end date for the war? (after the end date, either side can ask the judge to force the end of the war and draw up a settlement based on how each side is doing at that point): Shall we run it for 30 days, that should be enough to test anybodies patience or sanity, 15 days if you'd rather there was a tolerably quick resolution.
h. What are you risking? (land, currency, technology etc); A little difficult to fathom right now...
Re: Pre War Conditions
Yeah, gotta be said... the name is somewhat... sanctimonious.
HRH High Prince Babs Beau
<insertcountlesstitleshere>
ACTIVITY GOD!
<insertcountlesstitleshere>
ACTIVITY GOD!
Re: Pre War Conditions
Perhaps it should more adequately be renamed 'pest control'?
Re: Pre War Conditions
Perhaps merely, the War of Liberation?
There's no reason for them to complain as they arent being called fascist... and they still get to play hero because of the "liberation" bit. It doesnt specify whether the "liberated" will benefit in the long run or not.. so it's fairly neutral.
There's no reason for them to complain as they arent being called fascist... and they still get to play hero because of the "liberation" bit. It doesnt specify whether the "liberated" will benefit in the long run or not.. so it's fairly neutral.
HRH High Prince Babs Beau
<insertcountlesstitleshere>
ACTIVITY GOD!
<insertcountlesstitleshere>
ACTIVITY GOD!
Re: Pre War Conditions
I think andreas hope of only 4 people being allowed to post in this thread has gone down the pan >.>..<.<.. I quite like the name.. it portrays humour and shows us just how seriously we should take the goings on..
edit: on hearing who came up with the name I facepalm and the idea of it supposedly to have been drawn up in humour has left me.. damn you people -_-
edit: on hearing who came up with the name I facepalm and the idea of it supposedly to have been drawn up in humour has left me.. damn you people -_-
<PM-account only>