[JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
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- chrimigules
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[JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
There are a great many of discrepancies between the two sides on this phase of the war. Namely, there have been multiple instances where the Ashkenatzi and their allies have posted actions or indicated defensive strategies, and the Ocians have ignored them, either intentionally or mistakenly.
The Ocians have also been exceeding the technical limitations of their own equipment and then saying that they are special modified versions, but without compensating for that by increasing the points values of those units.
There is also a violation of Anunia rules, as well as general disputes that the Ashkenatzi and their allies have with the Ocians.
1. Ocian Defense System
One source of dispute has been the Ocian Defense System diagrams. Two of the three diagrams indicate the location and range of RADAR and missile batteries throughout Ocia.
As one can easily see, the RADAR ranges (blue) are not centered on the RADAR stations (orange). Some are ovular, some are larger than others -- though this can be explained by differently sized/powered RADAR transmitters --, but most importantly, none of them are centered.
Some are near centered, such as the one west of Posavje, but look at the one northeast of Lucern. The RADAR station is on the edge of its own RADAR range. The range of a RADAR station should not be ovular and it should be equal in all directions from the station.
The same kind of problem is found here, where the maximum tracking/firing range of the Ajax missile bases are not even close to centered around those missile bases. The maximum range circles are all ovular and are not even the same size, even though they supposedly use the same missiles.
This has been brought to the Ocians' attention and has not been rectified.
2. Kovac's Orbat
Ignoring the entire section listed under Dervin since he is apparently not intending to participate, the number of units listed under Kovac and Kolya do not add up to 50,000 points, as would be expected since they are only 2 people. They add up to 50,900 points.
26 Fighters at 500 points each = 13 000 points
2 Bombers at 1000 points each = 2 000 points
Ocian Special Purposes Brigade = 10 000 points
Kovac's total = 25,000 points
1st Alpinska Armoured Brigade = 5 000 points
2nd Gorenska Armoured Brigade = 5 000 points
3rd Dalmintiska Armoured Brigade = 5 000 points
4th Notranskja Armoured Brigade = 5 000 points
1st Koroska Support Brigade = 5 000 points
Ocian Air Defence Command = 900 points
Kolya's total = 25 900 points
Grand total = 50 900 points
3. Kolya and Montague by Train
In his post at 12:47 UTC on Thursday, 24 September (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50768#p50768), Montague says that his Army Air Support Regiment moves to and sets a Forward Operations Base at a railyard junction 127km from Lucern, and that the Dalmantian Armoured Cavalry and Dalmantian Artillery were moving by train to that position, taking 11 and 13 hours respectively. According to his previous post on Tuesday 22 September (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50648#p50648), those units were in Izola and Rijeka respectively.
According to Bill's MCS Distance Calculator (http://bill3000.net/phptest/Distance/), I choose for the below diagram a point almost exactly 127 km from Lucern (actually, ~128 km). From there, the Dalmantian Armoured Cavalry must cover a distance of 672 km and the Dalmantian Artillery must cover a distance of 811 km, if the railways are perfectly straight.
12 minutes later, Maximos posted (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50769#p50769) that he sent teams to go out and destroy all of the railway lines that fed to Lucern. by this time, Montague's units would have been 10 3/4 hours and 12 3/4 hours away, and would have proceeding thusfar (indicated in yellow):
And since nobody posted an attempt to stop Maximos's operation, and because Maximos had plenty of time to execute this operation before Montague's trains even could pass into Alpinska (~4 3/4 hours and ~9 3/4 hours respectively), then it can be assumed that Maximos cut the railway lines before Montague's trains could reach their destination. Therefore, Montague could not have reached his destination as planned and wouldn't be in position to attack Lucern when he did.
Further to that, Kolya's post (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50799#p50799), which was made 9 hours, 14 minutes after Maximos's post, has Kolya moving his forces from Rijeka (2nd Gorenska), Bergen (3rd Dalmantiska), and Directus (1st Koroska) all the way over to southwestern Alpinska in order to encircle Lucern within a single move. By this time, the railway lines were destroyed long ago, meaning that Kolya's units were all limited to the 50 pixel per day limitation on troop movement once they reach Alpinska.
This means that Kolya would have to spend a day getting to the end of the railway lines, and then another day traversing the landscape from the end of the railway lines to even get near Lucern, and another day so so that his forces can prepare to launch an attack. Instead, Kolya's troops all move into position near instantaneously. The same goes for Montague, since the railway lines would have been cut hours before he even reached the Alpinska border.
4. Kolya's and Montague's attack on Lucern
Since Kolya and Montague should not have been where they proport that they were, their next posts, where they move in to attack Ashkenatzi positions in Lucern also could not have happened when they did.
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50831#p50831 -- Montague launching armed reconnaissance units and attacking the Ashkenatzi temporary airbase
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50861#p50861 -- Kolya bombarding Lucern
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50768#p50876 -- Montague moving to within 70km west of Lucern
These posts also disregard the defenses already set up for Lucern. The above posts were made on Friday evening/Saturday predawn.
Firstly, on Wednesday, 23 September, I posted that Four fighters would be on patrol over Lucern, with four fighters on alert and armed for air combat, and four fighters on alert and armed for ground attack: http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50734#p50734
Secondly, on Thursday, 24 September, Aster posted that his unit set up mine fields to the northeast, east, and southeast of Lucern, and that observation posts were set up: http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50787#p50787
Thirdly, on Friday predawn, 25 September, Aster had his units set up fortified positions overlooking the approaches to Lucern, and sent scouts out to 50 miles (~80 km). This is before Montague had the chance to move his units to within 70 km of Lucern. http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50818#p50818
When Aster posted about the setting up of mine fields, he included a small diagram
Using Bills MCS Distance Calculator, it comes out that the edge of this mine and observation area is on average 80 kilometers from the center of Lucern.
Thus, even if Montague were able to reach the area in the time that he did, he could not have simply moved in and out of the mine and observation area.
As for Kolya's move, bombarding Lucern... the BM-30 Smerch has a maximum range of 70 km, meaning that they would need to be brought within the mine and observation area in order to fire. Considering that this area contains anti-vehicle and anti-personnel mines, that would make entering this area mildly hazardout. Kolya, on the other hand, does nothing to circumvent this. He does not even mention it.
And of course, what is also left unmentioned are the units that Aster had posted to keep watch over the approaches to Lucern.
5. Kovac attacks Ashkenatzi Fighters
When Kovac makes an attack (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50821#p50821) on the fighters that Maximos had launched to destroy the Ocian RADAR station in Alpinska, there are three problems.
Firstly, Kovac's fighters wait until they get within gun range before they attack. By that point, the Ashkenatzi fighters could have fired defensive missiles. There is, however, no mention of this.
Secondly, the fighters from the 1st Premorska Air Support Squadron would have had to traverse over 1300 km. The JAS 39 Gripen, however, has a combat radius of only 800 km. Kovac argued that the Ocian version of the Gripen has a sufficiently large combat radius (how convenient) (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50872#p50872). That would require a 50% increase in its combat radius, and ought to be reflected in assigning the Ocian Gripen a higher points value. There aren't a lot of fighters that have a combat radius exceeding 800 km, so it practically demands a large increase in its points value.
Thirdly, Kovac completely ignores the air defenses in place in the area around Lucern, namely the ones previous referenced: 4 fighters on patrol, 4 in alert for air combat, 4 for ground attack (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50734#p50734). Since the location of the RADAR station is very close to Lucern, it would be expected that its proximity would afford it aerial coverage. Also considering that I had made a later post where I specifically mentioned that the fighter patrols included central Alpinska within their jurisdiction.
6. Kovac's aerial drop
Kovac makes the same sort of disregard for what has already been established when he decides to drop soldiers over Lucern with transport planes. Kovac seems to think that just by dropping paratroops at night that nobody would detect their approach. Unfortunately for him, RADAR works during the day, and the same that applies for the previous point, that there would be ample Antican air cover.
Request from the Ashkenatzi and Allies Side
That activities be halted until every one of these points is sorted out. There are too many and they are too great for them to simply be glossed over. They must all be addressed.
The Ocians have also been exceeding the technical limitations of their own equipment and then saying that they are special modified versions, but without compensating for that by increasing the points values of those units.
There is also a violation of Anunia rules, as well as general disputes that the Ashkenatzi and their allies have with the Ocians.
1. Ocian Defense System
One source of dispute has been the Ocian Defense System diagrams. Two of the three diagrams indicate the location and range of RADAR and missile batteries throughout Ocia.
As one can easily see, the RADAR ranges (blue) are not centered on the RADAR stations (orange). Some are ovular, some are larger than others -- though this can be explained by differently sized/powered RADAR transmitters --, but most importantly, none of them are centered.
Some are near centered, such as the one west of Posavje, but look at the one northeast of Lucern. The RADAR station is on the edge of its own RADAR range. The range of a RADAR station should not be ovular and it should be equal in all directions from the station.
The same kind of problem is found here, where the maximum tracking/firing range of the Ajax missile bases are not even close to centered around those missile bases. The maximum range circles are all ovular and are not even the same size, even though they supposedly use the same missiles.
This has been brought to the Ocians' attention and has not been rectified.
2. Kovac's Orbat
Ignoring the entire section listed under Dervin since he is apparently not intending to participate, the number of units listed under Kovac and Kolya do not add up to 50,000 points, as would be expected since they are only 2 people. They add up to 50,900 points.
26 Fighters at 500 points each = 13 000 points
2 Bombers at 1000 points each = 2 000 points
Ocian Special Purposes Brigade = 10 000 points
Kovac's total = 25,000 points
1st Alpinska Armoured Brigade = 5 000 points
2nd Gorenska Armoured Brigade = 5 000 points
3rd Dalmintiska Armoured Brigade = 5 000 points
4th Notranskja Armoured Brigade = 5 000 points
1st Koroska Support Brigade = 5 000 points
Ocian Air Defence Command = 900 points
Kolya's total = 25 900 points
Grand total = 50 900 points
3. Kolya and Montague by Train
In his post at 12:47 UTC on Thursday, 24 September (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50768#p50768), Montague says that his Army Air Support Regiment moves to and sets a Forward Operations Base at a railyard junction 127km from Lucern, and that the Dalmantian Armoured Cavalry and Dalmantian Artillery were moving by train to that position, taking 11 and 13 hours respectively. According to his previous post on Tuesday 22 September (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50648#p50648), those units were in Izola and Rijeka respectively.
According to Bill's MCS Distance Calculator (http://bill3000.net/phptest/Distance/), I choose for the below diagram a point almost exactly 127 km from Lucern (actually, ~128 km). From there, the Dalmantian Armoured Cavalry must cover a distance of 672 km and the Dalmantian Artillery must cover a distance of 811 km, if the railways are perfectly straight.
12 minutes later, Maximos posted (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50769#p50769) that he sent teams to go out and destroy all of the railway lines that fed to Lucern. by this time, Montague's units would have been 10 3/4 hours and 12 3/4 hours away, and would have proceeding thusfar (indicated in yellow):
And since nobody posted an attempt to stop Maximos's operation, and because Maximos had plenty of time to execute this operation before Montague's trains even could pass into Alpinska (~4 3/4 hours and ~9 3/4 hours respectively), then it can be assumed that Maximos cut the railway lines before Montague's trains could reach their destination. Therefore, Montague could not have reached his destination as planned and wouldn't be in position to attack Lucern when he did.
Further to that, Kolya's post (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50799#p50799), which was made 9 hours, 14 minutes after Maximos's post, has Kolya moving his forces from Rijeka (2nd Gorenska), Bergen (3rd Dalmantiska), and Directus (1st Koroska) all the way over to southwestern Alpinska in order to encircle Lucern within a single move. By this time, the railway lines were destroyed long ago, meaning that Kolya's units were all limited to the 50 pixel per day limitation on troop movement once they reach Alpinska.
This means that Kolya would have to spend a day getting to the end of the railway lines, and then another day traversing the landscape from the end of the railway lines to even get near Lucern, and another day so so that his forces can prepare to launch an attack. Instead, Kolya's troops all move into position near instantaneously. The same goes for Montague, since the railway lines would have been cut hours before he even reached the Alpinska border.
4. Kolya's and Montague's attack on Lucern
Since Kolya and Montague should not have been where they proport that they were, their next posts, where they move in to attack Ashkenatzi positions in Lucern also could not have happened when they did.
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50831#p50831 -- Montague launching armed reconnaissance units and attacking the Ashkenatzi temporary airbase
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50861#p50861 -- Kolya bombarding Lucern
http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50768#p50876 -- Montague moving to within 70km west of Lucern
These posts also disregard the defenses already set up for Lucern. The above posts were made on Friday evening/Saturday predawn.
Firstly, on Wednesday, 23 September, I posted that Four fighters would be on patrol over Lucern, with four fighters on alert and armed for air combat, and four fighters on alert and armed for ground attack: http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50734#p50734
Secondly, on Thursday, 24 September, Aster posted that his unit set up mine fields to the northeast, east, and southeast of Lucern, and that observation posts were set up: http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50787#p50787
Thirdly, on Friday predawn, 25 September, Aster had his units set up fortified positions overlooking the approaches to Lucern, and sent scouts out to 50 miles (~80 km). This is before Montague had the chance to move his units to within 70 km of Lucern. http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50818#p50818
When Aster posted about the setting up of mine fields, he included a small diagram
Using Bills MCS Distance Calculator, it comes out that the edge of this mine and observation area is on average 80 kilometers from the center of Lucern.
Thus, even if Montague were able to reach the area in the time that he did, he could not have simply moved in and out of the mine and observation area.
As for Kolya's move, bombarding Lucern... the BM-30 Smerch has a maximum range of 70 km, meaning that they would need to be brought within the mine and observation area in order to fire. Considering that this area contains anti-vehicle and anti-personnel mines, that would make entering this area mildly hazardout. Kolya, on the other hand, does nothing to circumvent this. He does not even mention it.
And of course, what is also left unmentioned are the units that Aster had posted to keep watch over the approaches to Lucern.
5. Kovac attacks Ashkenatzi Fighters
When Kovac makes an attack (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50821#p50821) on the fighters that Maximos had launched to destroy the Ocian RADAR station in Alpinska, there are three problems.
Firstly, Kovac's fighters wait until they get within gun range before they attack. By that point, the Ashkenatzi fighters could have fired defensive missiles. There is, however, no mention of this.
Secondly, the fighters from the 1st Premorska Air Support Squadron would have had to traverse over 1300 km. The JAS 39 Gripen, however, has a combat radius of only 800 km. Kovac argued that the Ocian version of the Gripen has a sufficiently large combat radius (how convenient) (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50872#p50872). That would require a 50% increase in its combat radius, and ought to be reflected in assigning the Ocian Gripen a higher points value. There aren't a lot of fighters that have a combat radius exceeding 800 km, so it practically demands a large increase in its points value.
Thirdly, Kovac completely ignores the air defenses in place in the area around Lucern, namely the ones previous referenced: 4 fighters on patrol, 4 in alert for air combat, 4 for ground attack (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50734#p50734). Since the location of the RADAR station is very close to Lucern, it would be expected that its proximity would afford it aerial coverage. Also considering that I had made a later post where I specifically mentioned that the fighter patrols included central Alpinska within their jurisdiction.
6. Kovac's aerial drop
Kovac makes the same sort of disregard for what has already been established when he decides to drop soldiers over Lucern with transport planes. Kovac seems to think that just by dropping paratroops at night that nobody would detect their approach. Unfortunately for him, RADAR works during the day, and the same that applies for the previous point, that there would be ample Antican air cover.
Request from the Ashkenatzi and Allies Side
That activities be halted until every one of these points is sorted out. There are too many and they are too great for them to simply be glossed over. They must all be addressed.
Коля лает «гав-гав».
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Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
Well, in order to keep things moving and offering my two cents to all sides and Guido,
1. About the circles and center
I agree. Whats going on with those? I don't care much about the circles with their centers inside the ocian territory (as those can be read as having some ground vehicle at that spot or something). But what about the ones where the center lies outside of the Ocian territory?
2. Kovac's Orbat
There is no problem here. Kovac already mentioned that the 90 anti-air units are not to be considered/included in the orbat. Thus, the points total is infact 50,000 only.
3. Koyla and Montague by Train
Maximos' post:
In this particular case, I'd say Koyla and montague get away with it because maximos didn't write a story and never mentioned where those explosives were placed. Also, if you are assuming Alpinska border, it would take a long time for maximos to get there (50 pixels a day for soldiers). In that time, I think at least montague might have made it across already.
4. Kolya's and Montague's attack on Lucern
See previous point for koyla and montague's presence near Lucern.
Chris posted:
5. Kovac attacks Ashkenatzi Fighters
His gripens need not have the entire range. He already mentioned that these aircrafts landed (somewhere) and got refueled. Though, I personally like to believe that he did himself a mid-air refueling instead.
Kovac, please keep the range of Gripen in mind when next using them. At best 80 pixels they can go one-way without having to refuel. If you do go more than 80 pixels, and do not mention how they got refueled or anything, then it will be assumed that those gripens are flying continuously and that they would drop down after fuel runs out (i doubt guido or anyone would let you say that the gripen made a successful landing at a major road or something). You could say you would be mid-air refueling them, but then you are going to be putting those refueling tankers up as a target for the opponents. If you want a ground-based refueling, then it has to be at an airport that is still capable of landing and launching aircrafts.
6. Kovac's aerial drop
I do not see in the link you provided any sign of antica/ashkenatzi side having units to detect his aircraft. I could be wrong though and there might be some support staff present with that capability. However, even if his aircraft is detected, it would take time for your aircrafts to come to Lucern (no idea where the Omicron base is) and by then the special forces could already have been dropped. You could take out the transport if you want.
1. About the circles and center
I agree. Whats going on with those? I don't care much about the circles with their centers inside the ocian territory (as those can be read as having some ground vehicle at that spot or something). But what about the ones where the center lies outside of the Ocian territory?
2. Kovac's Orbat
There is no problem here. Kovac already mentioned that the 90 anti-air units are not to be considered/included in the orbat. Thus, the points total is infact 50,000 only.
3. Koyla and Montague by Train
Maximos' post:
He doesn't mention where those explosives are placed. You are assuming its on the Alpinska border. For all we know, it could be a few meters outside the city limits. That's what the story section is for, rather than just writing a summary.- Four special operations teams of ten troops each set off to detonate with explosives all railway lines into Lucern from every direction save to the border
In this particular case, I'd say Koyla and montague get away with it because maximos didn't write a story and never mentioned where those explosives were placed. Also, if you are assuming Alpinska border, it would take a long time for maximos to get there (50 pixels a day for soldiers). In that time, I think at least montague might have made it across already.
4. Kolya's and Montague's attack on Lucern
See previous point for koyla and montague's presence near Lucern.
Chris posted:
Since there is no accompanying story, all I take is that four fighters were in air over Lucern at that time. Then they returned and that was it. The post doesn't mention its a continuous presence of antican fighters over Lucern. Chances of montague and koyla attacking at the time chris' fighters were back at antican base is high.Four fighters put on patrol over Lucern. Four put on alert with air superiority ordnance. Four put on alert with ground attack ordnance.
Helicopter on aerial surveillance posted over Lucern.
I am not sure where montague is attacking from, but i did read that koyla was surrounding Lucern? Well, clearly the mine fields do not affect the remaining 270 degrees into Lucern. But on those E, NE and SE routes, I do agree that the ocians would lose some troops and vehicles.Troopers from the Hambear legion/detachment Astopov begin to mine the North-Eastern, Eastern and South Eastern routes out of Lucern with anti-personnel mines and anti-tank mines, whilst IEDs are placed inside tunnels in the route.
5. Kovac attacks Ashkenatzi Fighters
His gripens need not have the entire range. He already mentioned that these aircrafts landed (somewhere) and got refueled. Though, I personally like to believe that he did himself a mid-air refueling instead.
Kovac, please keep the range of Gripen in mind when next using them. At best 80 pixels they can go one-way without having to refuel. If you do go more than 80 pixels, and do not mention how they got refueled or anything, then it will be assumed that those gripens are flying continuously and that they would drop down after fuel runs out (i doubt guido or anyone would let you say that the gripen made a successful landing at a major road or something). You could say you would be mid-air refueling them, but then you are going to be putting those refueling tankers up as a target for the opponents. If you want a ground-based refueling, then it has to be at an airport that is still capable of landing and launching aircrafts.
6. Kovac's aerial drop
I do not see in the link you provided any sign of antica/ashkenatzi side having units to detect his aircraft. I could be wrong though and there might be some support staff present with that capability. However, even if his aircraft is detected, it would take time for your aircrafts to come to Lucern (no idea where the Omicron base is) and by then the special forces could already have been dropped. You could take out the transport if you want.
- chrimigules
- Posts: 1102
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Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
The Omicron base is supposed to be in Lucern itself, and that's been confirmed by the Ocians.
I have units for aerial surveillance, which have been consistently cited as being over Lucern. In fact, Montague was nice enough to 24-hour me and shoot one down while I was busy trying to get all of this squared away. Thus, both sides have acknowledged that there is aerial surveillance over the Lucern area. As for the fighters on patrol and on alert, even if the patrol went away, there were still 4 fighters put on alert status at a time, and that's what I meant for the fighter patrol as well, that it was 4 fighters on patrol at a time (not at the time). If you really want, I can go back and write a full on post for it. I was busy working on a case analysis at the time and I wanted to make sure that I had units in position for when they became necessary, but I surely have more free time now. Plus, I kept mentioning the fighter patrols going over the area around Lucern later on. That hasn't been disputed either.
And from the look of Aster's diagram, the area in question effectively goes to the coast, and because looking at Lucern's position, northward is partially occupied by the lake, so the land itself goes in a northeasterly direction anyway.
And also the problem with Kovac attacking the Ashkenatzi fighters is that he says that the fighters from Premorska would be there in 4 minutes. That's not a lot of time to refuel.
As for the Orbat, you're still arguing with him in the Ocian Orbats thread.
I have units for aerial surveillance, which have been consistently cited as being over Lucern. In fact, Montague was nice enough to 24-hour me and shoot one down while I was busy trying to get all of this squared away. Thus, both sides have acknowledged that there is aerial surveillance over the Lucern area. As for the fighters on patrol and on alert, even if the patrol went away, there were still 4 fighters put on alert status at a time, and that's what I meant for the fighter patrol as well, that it was 4 fighters on patrol at a time (not at the time). If you really want, I can go back and write a full on post for it. I was busy working on a case analysis at the time and I wanted to make sure that I had units in position for when they became necessary, but I surely have more free time now. Plus, I kept mentioning the fighter patrols going over the area around Lucern later on. That hasn't been disputed either.
And from the look of Aster's diagram, the area in question effectively goes to the coast, and because looking at Lucern's position, northward is partially occupied by the lake, so the land itself goes in a northeasterly direction anyway.
And also the problem with Kovac attacking the Ashkenatzi fighters is that he says that the fighters from Premorska would be there in 4 minutes. That's not a lot of time to refuel.
As for the Orbat, you're still arguing with him in the Ocian Orbats thread.
Коля лает «гав-гав».
Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
I have to agree with Chrimigules. We can't fight when the Ocians just keep ignoring our posts. Incidently, I must concede to Lord Montague's attack upon my forward positions in Lucern.
Incidently, the "Observation posts" are merely small pits and redoubts on elevated terrain armed with a GPMG, a few anti tank rocket launchers and about 4 men. Their purpose is not to engage, but merely to alert Lucern of any incoming attack.
Incidently, the "Observation posts" are merely small pits and redoubts on elevated terrain armed with a GPMG, a few anti tank rocket launchers and about 4 men. Their purpose is not to engage, but merely to alert Lucern of any incoming attack.
- Guido Zambelis
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Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
1. Ocian Defense System
The Radar coverage is hereby altered to be 80 pixels around each orange square. The blue circles are to be disregarded.
The Ajax coverage is hereby altered to be 350 pixels around each yellow square. The yellow circles are to be disregarded.
2. Kovac's Orbat
The Ocian party has 24 hours to amend their Orbat or the Ocian Air Defence Command will be removed.
3. Kolya and Montague by Train
The lines have been destroyed. Montague's forces have reached the destroyed sections, as have Kolya's. All moves made after that point will be disregarded and will be moved from the official war thread.
Clarification: the line that has been destroyed is a double track section between Lucern and the railhead.
4. Kolya's and Montague's attack on Lucern
Moves disregarded owing to #3 above.
5. Kovac attacks Ashkenatzi Fighters
Kovac's attack is disregarded and is to be re-written, taking into account the points made by Chris. In addition; the fighters have a range of 800km unless their points on the Orbat are increased.
6. Kovac's aerial drop
Move disregarded and to be re-written.
The war is suspended until the Ocian party note this ruling and comply with it.
The Radar coverage is hereby altered to be 80 pixels around each orange square. The blue circles are to be disregarded.
The Ajax coverage is hereby altered to be 350 pixels around each yellow square. The yellow circles are to be disregarded.
2. Kovac's Orbat
The Ocian party has 24 hours to amend their Orbat or the Ocian Air Defence Command will be removed.
3. Kolya and Montague by Train
The lines have been destroyed. Montague's forces have reached the destroyed sections, as have Kolya's. All moves made after that point will be disregarded and will be moved from the official war thread.
Clarification: the line that has been destroyed is a double track section between Lucern and the railhead.
4. Kolya's and Montague's attack on Lucern
Moves disregarded owing to #3 above.
5. Kovac attacks Ashkenatzi Fighters
Kovac's attack is disregarded and is to be re-written, taking into account the points made by Chris. In addition; the fighters have a range of 800km unless their points on the Orbat are increased.
6. Kovac's aerial drop
Move disregarded and to be re-written.
The war is suspended until the Ocian party note this ruling and comply with it.
Last edited by Guido Zambelis on Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: clarification on #3
Reason: clarification on #3
Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
Admittely, Montague did use apache helicopters, and not ground forces to attack my positions at Lucern...
- Guido Zambelis
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Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
Anyone aggrieved by a ruling against them is free to state their grounds for appeal.
- Lord_Montague
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Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
Damn right I'm going to appeal. This has all been done in the space of 24 hours or so without the chance of a response from the defence and a rebuttal from the prosecution.
I'll appeal certain elements without adressing the whole case as that is matter for other respondents.
3.
I agree with Extreme's interpretation which is what I pointed out to Max beforehand. He did not say where those explosives were placed nor that he'd actually set them off until he 24 hour'd them. Also, Little Lucern is too far away for him to detonate his explosives cutting off the railway.
4. As for the mines, he's mined the routes into Lucern from those directions. To me that means he's mined the highways and roads. Why would an attacking force moving to create a broad front travel solely down highways and roads that the enemy has been able to do whatever he likes with? Furthermore he doesn't actualy SPECIFY how far out the mines are placed just that the routes are mined. That could mean anything from 1m outside the city boundaries to the distance Chrim is claiming. There is no mention on the diagram of the distance and I doubt very much the effectivity of such a minefield laid by so few men.
A General reply to Chrim's whinge after Extreme:
Nobody ever specified where Omicron Mu is and unless the judge has been provided with its locations as I did at La Terre I think anybody is within their rights to sight it on the outskirts of teh city where there is space for such an airfield.
I only established a helicopter was there, not the fighters. Apart from those 4 fighters, there was no other fighter presence at Lucern.
Aster, you may acknowledge my forces did hit some of your forward positions but you can claim all your like that my Apache was shot down by your forces and it aint gonna happen.
I'll appeal certain elements without adressing the whole case as that is matter for other respondents.
3.
I agree with Extreme's interpretation which is what I pointed out to Max beforehand. He did not say where those explosives were placed nor that he'd actually set them off until he 24 hour'd them. Also, Little Lucern is too far away for him to detonate his explosives cutting off the railway.
4. As for the mines, he's mined the routes into Lucern from those directions. To me that means he's mined the highways and roads. Why would an attacking force moving to create a broad front travel solely down highways and roads that the enemy has been able to do whatever he likes with? Furthermore he doesn't actualy SPECIFY how far out the mines are placed just that the routes are mined. That could mean anything from 1m outside the city boundaries to the distance Chrim is claiming. There is no mention on the diagram of the distance and I doubt very much the effectivity of such a minefield laid by so few men.
A General reply to Chrim's whinge after Extreme:
Nobody ever specified where Omicron Mu is and unless the judge has been provided with its locations as I did at La Terre I think anybody is within their rights to sight it on the outskirts of teh city where there is space for such an airfield.
I only established a helicopter was there, not the fighters. Apart from those 4 fighters, there was no other fighter presence at Lucern.
Aster, you may acknowledge my forces did hit some of your forward positions but you can claim all your like that my Apache was shot down by your forces and it aint gonna happen.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
- chrimigules
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Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
But you did establish that there was a helicopter there.
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- Lord_Montague
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Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
I only established a helicopter was there
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
I would like to personally apologise for some of my rather subjective and imprecise statements regarding my men mining approaches to Lucern, and the location of Omricon-Mu. I will attempt to remedy these problems immediately by a private post to the judge and my fellow kommanders.
However, my follies so far have been nil compared to the liberties that some of the Ocian side have taken with the Annuia charter.
Also, Montague - on consideration, I must accept - bringing down an attack helicopter with small arms is going to be exceedingly difficult. Forget my previous post in regards to the destruction of one of your helicopters.
However, my follies so far have been nil compared to the liberties that some of the Ocian side have taken with the Annuia charter.
Also, Montague - on consideration, I must accept - bringing down an attack helicopter with small arms is going to be exceedingly difficult. Forget my previous post in regards to the destruction of one of your helicopters.
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Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
I'm starting to see my original concern about the selection of judge emerge, the low life bean counting Ashkeantzi are most certainly bribing the judge to be incredibly biased. I'd like to petition for Andreas or Scott to be the judge. Throughout this whole war Mr. Z has employed double standards and his recent ruling makes that ever so clear.
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Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
This is TOTALLY unacceptable and I will refuse to drop this absolute bull. Mr. Zambelis is biased in his decision to postpone the war for the ashkenatzis after letting the war commence WEEKS before matt and myself left our leave of absence. I know Mr. Zambelis has some sort of agenda to sabotage Ocia for whatever twisted grudge he may hold, which interdicts him from being impartial, therefore, it is crucial to find a judge capable of making uninfluenced and professional decisions.
Generalissimo Kolya Radchenko
Chairman of the National Defense Commission of the Ocian Federation
Minister of Defense & Justice of the Ocian Federation
Chairman of the National Defense Commission of the Ocian Federation
Minister of Defense & Justice of the Ocian Federation
Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
Into Lucern is key here. If they were on the Alpinska Border, I'd have stated so- but the point of that post, as was fairly self evident, was to secure the defence of Lucern, not to mount a counterattack.all railway lines into Lucern
Guido, Chrim, look. There's no way you can reason with these people. They won't accept rules unless they're tailor made for them, and unlike Montague, who actually took the time to reason the specifics of this dispute, neither Kovac nor Kolya can even present a reasoned and weighed-up argument as to why exactly the judge is wrong.I'm starting to see my original concern about the selection of judge emerge, the low life bean counting Ashkeantzi are most certainly bribing the judge to be incredibly biased. I'd like to petition for Andreas or Scott to be the judge. Throughout this whole war Mr. Z has employed double standards and his recent ruling makes that ever so clear.
Their very refusal to do so incriminates their guilt in taking gross liberties with the Anunia Recwar system as Chrim has pointed out. The fact of the matter is that Kolya and Kovac will only respect the Anunia Charter when it benefits them.
They have no sense of fair play, no idea that when one signs agreement to the terms of the charter, one damned well sticks by them, and are essentially throwing a childish tantrum.
I say- let them get upset. Let them have Andreas or whoever they want as a judge- but anyone of clear reasoning and an unbiased nature serving as a judge will say exactly the same things. If Kovac is as honourable as he says, then he'll do the proper thing and swallow his pride, then we can continue this war- or at least just present a valid argument as to his claims of bias.
It doesn't matter who's judge- if they rule against Ocia in any capacity whatsoever, they'll be denounced as 'biased', or 'fascist', or somesuch drivel. Kovac's all-encompassing and childish desire to play Army Men rather than treat this as a simulation for which there are rules and standards we must all accept is testimony to his nation's attitude to micronationalism in general.
I call on the Ocians to prove me wrong and at least present a valid argument rather than a load of ill-concieved accusations and vilification against an unbiased and impartial judge who's done a fine job.
- chrimigules
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Re: [JP] Chrimigules vs. Montague, Kolya, Kovac; Entire Ocian Ca
No no. They would be denounced as FACSIST.
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