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Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:55 pm
by siriain
Name & Title: On behalf of Nathan of Natopia
E-Mail/Contact: PM either of us
Nation: Natopia
Request:
Image
Notes:
Natopia reinstated its protectorate over Holzborg on December 6th. A treaty was agreed with Elwynn on December 24th to retain a reduced proportion of the Holzer land for the protectorate, and to give the rest as a gift to Elwynn.

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:17 am
by Kokovtsov
This is a illegal claim.

I have been redoing Holzborg for a month now, I'm fine with Holzborg being removed for now, as It really wont be ready until our grace period.

No one has the right to act on a alive or dead Holzborg other than me, Justin Langel, its founder

OKAY THANKS!

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:54 am
by Nick
This is pretty weird I must say. As much as I like Daniel, I cannot say I find this to be in any way fair to Holzborg and Kokovtsov.

Although it means absolutely NOTHING to the council, I do voice my concern and formally announce that Normark will not recognize this claim over Holzer territory.

Why? Because this whole situation is "Okay Holzer isn't active right so we're going to annex it through a darkness covered loophole in a treaty, THEN we'll hand the land off as quick as possible to another nation so we rid ourselves of any and all responsibility....hopefully."

I find that to be very....uncool.

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:24 pm
by Jonas Windsor
Einhorn wrote: Why? Because this whole situation is "Okay Holzer isn't active right so we're going to annex it through a darkness covered loophole in a treaty, THEN we'll hand the land off as quick as possible to another nation so we rid ourselves of any and all responsibility....hopefully."
Don't blame Elwynn and Natopia for it, Einhorn. As I understand it, the following happened: a Holzborgian offered to make Holzborg a Natopia protectorate. Now, with the return of the Kaiser of Holzborg, it seems that the Holzborgian who presented himself as government official didn't have any power to make such decisions.

At least, that's what I made up from what I read of it. :wink:

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:30 pm
by Craitman
In all fairness, if I weren't so busy with other things, I'd have put through a forced reduction on this at the start of the month. With that being overdue, the post count for this month not being over the 1 PPD level, a bit of a balls-up with the whole legitimacy of this handover and with Kokovtsov saying he's fine with it being forcefully removed (with the grace period, of course), I think a forced removal might as well be put through in the new year.

Then over the grace month, you can sort it all out between you. How's that?

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:45 pm
by siriain
That doesn't seem to be an unreasonable request. Hopefully Nathan may agree to it when he's around next.

To clear up any potential misunderstandings, Natopia has re-established its previous protectorate over Holzborg. It's not a new protectorate and it was effectively a unilateral action, as there was not really anyone of standing around at the time who could prevent that, especially any superfluous officials. I'm sure Nathan was just being diplomatic. ;)

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:21 pm
by Nick
Jonas Windsor wrote:
Einhorn wrote: Why? Because this whole situation is "Okay Holzer isn't active right so we're going to annex it through a darkness covered loophole in a treaty, THEN we'll hand the land off as quick as possible to another nation so we rid ourselves of any and all responsibility....hopefully."
Don't blame Elwynn and Natopia for it, Einhorn. As I understand it, the following happened: a Holzborgian offered to make Holzborg a Natopia protectorate. Now, with the return of the Kaiser of Holzborg, it seems that the Holzborgian who presented himself as government official didn't have any power to make such decisions.

At least, that's what I made up from what I read of it. :wink:
I think it was more than obvious that that particular "citizen" had no authority to do so. I am sure that the treaty made specific requirements as to who could do that. I would be very disappointed if the treaty said "OHHAI, RANDOM PEOPLE CAN HANDLE OUR SOVEREIGNTY HERPDERP". According to Justin, this person basically just let themselves in and helped themselves to the power. Was there any effort to contact Justin via alternate methods (e-mail,, pm's here, MSN, yahoo and so on) about this whole situation and about the false assumption to the Reichschancellery or the issue itself? Apparently not because less than a month later, Natopia is carving up the land between themselves and Elwynn. To be honest I would've probably not have said a word if Natopia merely reinstated Holzborg as a protectorate and then offered Justin the land back when he is ready. But there is the issue of giving 75% of the land to Elwynn, making it impossible for any recourse, especially now that we know he was just moving forums and such :roll:

Basically the pace and process was very slipshod and I do blame them for being extremely careless and lazy. I think it is a general common courtesy that in issues like this, we should all avoid negotiations of sovereignty with people who basically assume power without being appointed by the sovereign or being voted it. They literally just showed up and claimed total authority without any contact with Justin or whatever. Natopia made this decision despite those factors and it should recognize its mistake and withdraw the claim.

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:44 am
by Kokovtsov
Schönenbucht Schloss
It is to His Imperial and Royal Majesty’s disgust that the Bovic Dominion of Natopia and the Elwynnese Realm have entered into a illegal treaty to divide up the lands of the Hölzischen (Holzer) Crown and People. This illegal act has been condemned by the Interim Imperial Government of Hölzischenland (Holzborg) as well as the Kingdom of Normark. The Hölzischen people in all of their might will not stand for this injustice to the Empire. Therefore it has been determined to terminate all diplomatic relations with the Bovic Realm of Natopia. The Hölzischen Empire will not entertain any relations with the Elwynnese Realm or any other nation who recognizes the so called Treaty of Holstein, between Natopia and the Elwynnese Realm.

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:55 am
by Maximos
Regardless of whatever legal loopholes were used to force through this claim, I am of the opinion that Holzborg's destiny should ultimately lie with its constituent citizens. If they don't want to become an Elwynnese/Natopian Protectorate then I see no good argument which can be made to force them to.

Just feel I should add that these are my own personal views and Ashkenatza has not yet decided its official position on this.

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:59 am
by Aster
When the new Ashkenatzi Nohsi has formed his cabinet, and we've all discussed this in more detail, the Republic of Ashkenatza can produce an official position on this matter.

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:17 am
by Nick
I confirm Lord Kokovtsov's statement with my obscenely sized* signature image -

Image


*A lightening of the mood is required before things turn seriously sour, this can be resolved peacefully without it going into a flamewar.

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:21 am
by Andreas the Wise
Statement from the Lord General's Office
The Lord General's Office recognises that there are competing claims surrounding the legitimacy of the Natopia-Elwynn treaty regarding Holzborg as a Natopian Protectorate. The Lord General's Office also recognises that, like most micronational diplomatic incidents, the majority of this incident seems to have derived from miscommunication, and has been blown out of proportion by too many not-fully-informed posts as a result. The Lord General begs that all parties pause, and wait for Nathan to make a comment regarding the matter in light of the Kaiser's public return. Given our many dealings with Nathan in the past, the Lord General's Office trusts that he and the Butter Bull will make the right decision in this matter, and is disappointed with all parties who have leapt to conclusions without giving full consideration to attitudes and motivations of the individuals involved.
This, after all, is Natopia, who recently voluntarily reduced their land holdings because they knew they could not sustain their full Empire, and established themselves as a purely Southern Hemisphere power. To accuse them of being interested in Holzborg merely as a landgrab betrays a worrying lack of understanding about the Natopian people's foreign policy motivations, and a worrying lack of faith in the Natopian people to do the right and honourable thing. The Lord General's Office repeats our calls for all parties to wait for an official comment from Nathan, the Emperor or the Butter Bull, and not leap to conclusions about their actions.

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:01 am
by Scott Alexander
Another good question would be why Elwynn wants even more territory when they have a post count of 2 per day.

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:49 pm
by Nathan
Natopia is withdrawing its claim in light of Justin's return. A more detailed explanation is available in Natopia. However, we do not consider this a mistake, as we took all appropriate steps of opening a dialogue with Holzborg, which they disappeared from, without informing us of any time table for their restoration. Considering the alternatives and time constraints, and Natopia's unique position of having Holzborg voluntarily ceded to us before, we made a decision to recognize the tenuously assumed powers of the acting Reichskanlzer until such a time as Justin decided to return for a more formal and permanent solution.

This situation happened before, and as with the previous treaty ceding Holzborg to Natopia, we dutifully returned Holzborg to her people when they desired. As previously mentioned on this forum in our repeated claims and modifications, we have been following a public policy of land consolidation on Tapfer to regain control of our most historic and culturally significant land, therefore this should not be seen as a land-grab since Holzborg land is not significant nor strategically important to us since Natopia does not recwar. Elywnn was given control of parts of Holzborg due to Natopia's policy of not holding northern land and our own levels of activity. We cannot dictate to Elwynn what they will do, but the Elwynnese are considerate people, and as their foreign minister and member of the executive council, I was prepared to ensure the integrity and return of the land to Holzborg.

We appreciate the Ashkenatzi and Gralan governments for their level and diplomatic responses to this situation.

Re: Holzborg [Modification] (Redux)

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:49 am
by Nick
It is nice to see your side of the story but even having read your side I find this to be very strange at best. I have 3 main points -
  • The negotiation was done with an illegitimate "leader". I think most would simply avoid such an ambiguous situation with another micronation. Needless to say, how would you feel if your roles were switched. Don't give me any of that "it'll never happen" ego-stroking stuff because inactivity is a very real threat to even the best micronations. I think perhaps you should reevaluate the situation with your role switched with Justin's.
  • Carving up the land with an inactive nation that barely merits (as far as activity, I do like Daniel) the land it has right now in such a short amount of time is by far the worst move you've made. We could probably sweep the illegitimate leader business under the rug but this is a dead body in comparison. This was a very, very bad decision as you're banking on Elwynn wanting to give the land back. I think it would be an embarrassing situation if Elwynn because active again and decided to KEEP the land. There is no portion of text in the treaty which says Elwynn has to give it back upon the return of anyone. Infact it states in plain English that Elwynn has the right to do whatever they please with the territory.
  • According to Justin, beyond posting on the forum, there was no serious effort to contact him in light of these events. I mean really, when Normark was on shaky ground, people were busting down my e-door to see what the hell was up. Emails, PMs, IMs and I half expected someone to ring my phone if my tele# was knowledge to them. I've spoken with Justin via e-mail and he was very angry at the fact that he received no real communication. Would it not be courteous to e-mail or PM him if you began negotiations with a leader you knew to be illegitimate and ambiguous at best?
In short you went just too far. Your intentions may have been honorable but you simply went too far. After the events of point#1 you probably just should've left the nation to its own devices. There is a 1 month grace period and there isn't enough activity in the sector for people to start gobbling up land in that exact spot. And though this is now in hindsight, Justin was planning things anyway.

----
*puts crown on*

As Grand King of Normark I officially withdraw the condemnation of the Natopian government in light that they have withdrawn the claim. We urge Hölzborg to do the same and to make efforts to draft a treaty with Natopia to prevent this situation in the future.