[Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
Saikar, who on earth are you to criticise me in this situation? We have never had any dealings before but simply turning up and questioning my integrity is incredibly rude. I'll be honest and say that I had always heard fairly good things about you, especially from Dr. Olsen's reports, but after your little speech there I've changed my opinion quite drastically.
The Kingdom is more than willing to negotiate a settlement over this dispute in the proper and correct manner. We await Elwynn's response.
EDIT:
Documents relating to the Dominion of Amokolia which are still in existence in Victoria have been made public to counter the claims made by Mr. Kalirion.
The Kingdom is more than willing to negotiate a settlement over this dispute in the proper and correct manner. We await Elwynn's response.
EDIT:
Documents relating to the Dominion of Amokolia which are still in existence in Victoria have been made public to counter the claims made by Mr. Kalirion.
Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
Ladies and gents, I respectfully submit that the next 10 pages of nit-picking and insults be deferred in favour of the two affected parties getting down to a good and productive discussion to resolve this issue. I sense both sides at heart wish to see the situation resolved and closed poste-haste, so encourage both to do and all third parties to end their arguments in support of an agreement.
HRM August Charles II,
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
Her Majesty has already provided for a way to solve this matter. She intends to have this matter resolved within a week.
Harald Freyjugjöf the Generous Giver of the House of the Descendants of Freyja
High King of Stormark
Sovereign Lord on all Continents
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
The Amokolians have already provided for a way to solve this matter. They resolved the matter on January 10.
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
Give it to Elwynn, we will go over this again when Amokolia decides to leave it in a few months anyway.
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
That so-called solution is illegal, unlawful and improper since it violates both Victorial Law as well as the longstanding and very beneficial MCS policy that no member nation may lay claim to another member's land against the wishes of such member.Nathan wrote:The Amokolians have already provided for a way to solve this matter. They resolved the matter on January 10.
Her Majesty the Queen of Victoria has, however, provided for a legal, lawful and proper solution for the Amokolian matter.
Harald Freyjugjöf the Generous Giver of the House of the Descendants of Freyja
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
Isn't there already precedent that a nation, even joined to a larger nation, continues to hold right to their land?
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
If such a thing would happen, I can assure you that Elwynn would respect the Amokolians and honor their rights and allow them to do so.Kokovtsov wrote:Give it to Elwynn, we will go over this again when Amokolia decides to leave it in a few months anyway.
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
That very much depends on the terms of the Treaty of Annexation. That is, for example, exactly why Stormark in the Treaty of Sadness and Sorrow explicitly has vested the rights to Alexandria's lands in Emperor Edgard.chrimigules wrote:Isn't there already precedent that a nation, even joined to a larger nation, continues to hold right to their land?
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
You know what, enough already.
Amokolia was treated as a commodity way before Victoria, Stormark, or Elwynn got around to it, Jess saw to that. It has been tossed about so many times I don't even know how it has remained an entity, I give it that much credit. But, honestly, I know we're all trying to be nice and sincere and respect rights and all that cute stuff, but one person, out of the clear blue sky, chose a path for Amokolia who happened to be the head of state of another nation which wants Amokolian the land in the first place, and then worked it out with other nations for "regional stability." The founder doesn't come along until the hat trick is complete, and then decides he's part of the nation again and is its great and grand defender. And this is a nation which people already know does this thing all the time, and doesn't prosper as a result, it just keeps creating more conflicts like this for nations who don't want it.
Why do people assume that because something is done in the name of democracy that it's automatically right and excusable? Forget that its Amokolia, just think of any region. One person resides in that region, who happens to be the leader of another nation and decides that they want to detach that land from its current owner just to give it to themselves in another form. Honestly, not only is it incredibly naive to accept that as anything other than a land-grab, there is no such thing as micronational sovereignty after that. Every time someone wants a piece of land they can claim oppression and detach a region. Hell, you know what nations could start doing? Sending in people from their own nations to pull such things as Kalirion did, just so they can grab some land, and no one would be the wiser, because its all in the name of self-determination! You don't get to hide behind democracy or self-determination if your trying to do the greedy thing, that's where common sense comes in. You think I'm kidding? Ask any Austrian or Czech who was alive in 1938. Better yet, ask the original Elwynnese. Elwynn was not founded by the man who led the revolt, it was founded by someone else. And that founder didn't want it to go, but people got all hot and bothered, as much about personality as the rights of anyone, and so a treaty was signed and Elwynn became independent. And now it's being done to another micronation.
Nathan, you may have good intentions, and that is admirable, I honestly mean that, it's awesome. And Jess, you may very well want what is best for Amokolia, after the fact. But that's the point, after the fact. I don't extend those good intentions to why this was all orchestrated in the first place. And people are being drawn in to defend this thing for all the other reasons but the obvious facts. Kalirion claimed that their questions were never answered, yet it was Bjorn, a member of the Victorian government, high than any governor, who was left hanging when it came to those questions. Kalirion claimed that Amokolia was left without governance, did he ever step forward to help govern Amokolia in the absence of the governor, did Jess, did anyone else? A government structure still existed, who tried to put it into action, or attempted to salvage it? No. Amokolia voluntarily entered into union, and it never attempted to co-operate, despite overtures to give it self-determination (hence Dominion status), anadmitted on and off status of its founder. And guess what, the Queen showed up. If it was OK for just Daniel to show up and represent the Amokolian nation out of the blue, then, by that logic, the Queen just revived the Kingdom of Victoria, and reinstated legal rule over Amokolia, if it didn't already exist. Hence why negotiations were desired instead of other less-desirable options.
Amokolia was treated as a commodity way before Victoria, Stormark, or Elwynn got around to it, Jess saw to that. It has been tossed about so many times I don't even know how it has remained an entity, I give it that much credit. But, honestly, I know we're all trying to be nice and sincere and respect rights and all that cute stuff, but one person, out of the clear blue sky, chose a path for Amokolia who happened to be the head of state of another nation which wants Amokolian the land in the first place, and then worked it out with other nations for "regional stability." The founder doesn't come along until the hat trick is complete, and then decides he's part of the nation again and is its great and grand defender. And this is a nation which people already know does this thing all the time, and doesn't prosper as a result, it just keeps creating more conflicts like this for nations who don't want it.
Why do people assume that because something is done in the name of democracy that it's automatically right and excusable? Forget that its Amokolia, just think of any region. One person resides in that region, who happens to be the leader of another nation and decides that they want to detach that land from its current owner just to give it to themselves in another form. Honestly, not only is it incredibly naive to accept that as anything other than a land-grab, there is no such thing as micronational sovereignty after that. Every time someone wants a piece of land they can claim oppression and detach a region. Hell, you know what nations could start doing? Sending in people from their own nations to pull such things as Kalirion did, just so they can grab some land, and no one would be the wiser, because its all in the name of self-determination! You don't get to hide behind democracy or self-determination if your trying to do the greedy thing, that's where common sense comes in. You think I'm kidding? Ask any Austrian or Czech who was alive in 1938. Better yet, ask the original Elwynnese. Elwynn was not founded by the man who led the revolt, it was founded by someone else. And that founder didn't want it to go, but people got all hot and bothered, as much about personality as the rights of anyone, and so a treaty was signed and Elwynn became independent. And now it's being done to another micronation.
Nathan, you may have good intentions, and that is admirable, I honestly mean that, it's awesome. And Jess, you may very well want what is best for Amokolia, after the fact. But that's the point, after the fact. I don't extend those good intentions to why this was all orchestrated in the first place. And people are being drawn in to defend this thing for all the other reasons but the obvious facts. Kalirion claimed that their questions were never answered, yet it was Bjorn, a member of the Victorian government, high than any governor, who was left hanging when it came to those questions. Kalirion claimed that Amokolia was left without governance, did he ever step forward to help govern Amokolia in the absence of the governor, did Jess, did anyone else? A government structure still existed, who tried to put it into action, or attempted to salvage it? No. Amokolia voluntarily entered into union, and it never attempted to co-operate, despite overtures to give it self-determination (hence Dominion status), anadmitted on and off status of its founder. And guess what, the Queen showed up. If it was OK for just Daniel to show up and represent the Amokolian nation out of the blue, then, by that logic, the Queen just revived the Kingdom of Victoria, and reinstated legal rule over Amokolia, if it didn't already exist. Hence why negotiations were desired instead of other less-desirable options.
Galinn Karisson,
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
Godwin's Law. Stormark loses by default.Ask any Austrian or Czech who was alive in 1938.
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
Ask the Austrians and the Czechs in 1938? By Godwin's law I think you just lost this internet argument
Regarding Elwynn going against the will of its founder: Yes that's true, but the current Elwynnese and those involved in independence all have strong cultural and historical ties to Elwynn. Victoria has no historical or cultural ties to Amokolia, repeatedly calling it a millstone and a burden on Victoria's dainty neck and Her Majesty insulting the founder make this abundantly clear.
We're not hiding behind democracy here, we are asserting the right of people, living breathing people of Earth, NOT sims or Micrans or Victorians or Amokolians, but real people to do as they wish with the intellectual property they have invested time into. Regardless of if that time was invested yesterday or 5 years ago.
And yes, this is exactly like saying "you aren't playing fair, I'm taking me ball and going home. It's my ball. I bought it with my allowance."
I agree. When all is said and done Amokolia is in Elwynn.You know what, enough already.
That's not exactly what is going on here. Daniel was an Amokolian before Elwynn was independent, and Daniel isn't even the leader of Elwynn during this. No one is advocating for insurrection-by-immigration here. They have a right to the culture of Amokolia, the spirit of it. Both of these Amokolians are not sneaking into Amokolia and claiming their rightful ownership to it during the twilight of Victoria's death.One person resides in that region, who happens to be the leader of another nation and decides that they want to detach that land from its current owner just to give it to themselves in another form.
Regarding Elwynn going against the will of its founder: Yes that's true, but the current Elwynnese and those involved in independence all have strong cultural and historical ties to Elwynn. Victoria has no historical or cultural ties to Amokolia, repeatedly calling it a millstone and a burden on Victoria's dainty neck and Her Majesty insulting the founder make this abundantly clear.
We're not hiding behind democracy here, we are asserting the right of people, living breathing people of Earth, NOT sims or Micrans or Victorians or Amokolians, but real people to do as they wish with the intellectual property they have invested time into. Regardless of if that time was invested yesterday or 5 years ago.
And yes, this is exactly like saying "you aren't playing fair, I'm taking me ball and going home. It's my ball. I bought it with my allowance."
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
Yeah, I know about Godwin's law. But I actually study Nazism for a living, practically, so its not just an example picked from ignorance, it's an example picked from my own knowledge. Hence why I backed it up with an micronational example, which isn't incorrect to use.Ask the Austrians and the Czechs in 1938? By Godwin's law I think you just lost this internet argument
Yeah, sure, they have the right to culture. But culture doesn't mean the right to the land, and it doesn't mean the right to the state itself. Which is the point of this argument. The ball was still given away, and the person who received it doesn't have to give it back, especially if they didn't treat it all that bad and your just going to give it to someone else.They have a right to the culture of Amokolia
Galinn Karisson,
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
So essentially, your argument is "my ball now".
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Re: [Amokolia] Annexation by Elwynn
Sure it does. A culture is dependent upon the land it was based on. This is why I can't stand it when Micras nations just pack up and go and are unchanged hundred of miles away. And macronationally this is true too, Jews have a right to Israel because their culture is entrenched in that land. Native Americans have a right to America since their culture is so engrained in the land and geography and terrain.Galinn Karisson wrote: But culture doesn't mean the right to the land.
(granted in this scenario the MCS has ultimate right to and ownership of the land, but oh well )
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