Kalgachia secession from MIN
Moderator: Staff
Kalgachia secession from MIN
(not sure if this should be filed as a mod or a new claim; I'm going with the former)
Name & Title: Xantus Yastreb, Chairman of the Council of Perfecti
E-Mail/Contact: PM on this board
Nation: The Garden of Kalgachia
Request:
Notes:
Minarboria's two leading lights, Rossheim and Shyriath, have moved on to better things. Mourn them as I will; the whole Micras sector is poorer for their loss. With the narrative authority and webspace control lost, I'm in no position to unilaterally revive Minarboria beyond my previous (rather energetic) attempts, nor in good conscience can I file for its removal (none of the territory is of my provenance).
Instead I am seceding the approximate centre of gravity of my personal territorial influence, to continue the story (but not the same story - as much as I've given to Shrubdom, it's not my place to appropriate its legacy wholesale).
The seceded territory, Kalgachia, has reached one month of existence on the MicrasWiki with a steady pace of development. I trust the size of the claim is suitably modest.
(note to the avaricious: conditional on the acceptance of this claim, foreign annexations of Minarborian territory will not be opposed. Bon appetit )
Name & Title: Xantus Yastreb, Chairman of the Council of Perfecti
E-Mail/Contact: PM on this board
Nation: The Garden of Kalgachia
Request:
Notes:
Minarboria's two leading lights, Rossheim and Shyriath, have moved on to better things. Mourn them as I will; the whole Micras sector is poorer for their loss. With the narrative authority and webspace control lost, I'm in no position to unilaterally revive Minarboria beyond my previous (rather energetic) attempts, nor in good conscience can I file for its removal (none of the territory is of my provenance).
Instead I am seceding the approximate centre of gravity of my personal territorial influence, to continue the story (but not the same story - as much as I've given to Shrubdom, it's not my place to appropriate its legacy wholesale).
The seceded territory, Kalgachia, has reached one month of existence on the MicrasWiki with a steady pace of development. I trust the size of the claim is suitably modest.
(note to the avaricious: conditional on the acceptance of this claim, foreign annexations of Minarborian territory will not be opposed. Bon appetit )
-
- FMS Staff
- Posts: 21546
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:37 pm
- Location: Cherry Trees, Craitland
- Contact:
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
Any claim which involves a new nation being added to the map is a new claim. Modifications only modify existing nations...Yastreb wrote:(not sure if this should be filed as a mod or a new claim; I'm going with the former)
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
Ah, very well - for the extra criteria then, allow me to confirm that I am the only citizen, the MicrasWiki article can be considered the URL and you can find the flag here.
-
- FMS Staff
- Posts: 21546
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:37 pm
- Location: Cherry Trees, Craitland
- Contact:
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
Thanks! I hate to be a pain, but having thought about it, the land itself should probably be labelled as "disputed" up until a time that Minarboria is removed fully, then it would become Kalgachia's entirely. The situation reminds me of that of the Laqi Republic back in the day, so the disputed markings, given you don't have the authority to submit a removal, would make sense
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
With all due respect, the Kalgachi situation bears no resemblance at all to the Laqi Free Republic; the latter attempted secession in the face of an active opposition. Kalgachia is doing so from a wilfully abandoned territory (I can provide proof of said abandonment by PM for the sake of certain parties' privacy) at the instigation of that territory's most senior remaining inhabitant.
I would have hoped for a little discretion in recognising this state of affairs, especially as the alternative is likely to encounter complications; namely that at any time, any one of Minarboria's 36 forum accounts could be used with nefarious intent to bump the postcount above zero and restore it to what MCS procedures would consider active status (although it would be nothing of the sort). In effect this gives even foreigners with zero privilege the power to reset the three month waiting period for Minarboria's removal (prolonging Kalgachia's disputed status), at will, for an indefinite period (I'm sure nobody wants a repeat of Gralus' absurdly protracted demise). Having that happen around a sovereign Kalgachia is a prospect I was broadly comfortable with - but to have Kalgachia languish indefinitely as 'disputed' when nobody with authority is disputing from the Minarborian side, is not something I can accept.
While I appreciate your desire to remain faithful to MCS procedure, I feel in this case that the assignment of 'disputed' status is inappropriate for a unique situation that was not envisaged when the category was introduced. An abandoned territory, as Minarboria is, cannot be assumed to dispute a secession by default. I would like to hear the position of the whole MCS Council on this, and while I don't want to be seen as lobbing threats around I would like to make it clear that Kalgachia was intended as my final option for remaining in the sector. I cannot accept Kalgchia's portrayal as a disputed territory and, in the absence of anywhere else worth settling, anything less than Kalgachia's acceptance as an undisputed territory will entail the end of the project and my departure from Micras.
The MCS Council must decide whether, in the sector's current state, a rigorous adherence to fiat justitia et pereat mundus comes before the retention of an ever-shrinking pool of contributors. It may well see fit to decide against me, in which case I'll go without any more fuss. But it's an important question and I think it should go to a full Council vote, rather than an arbitrary ruling by your good administrative self.
I would have hoped for a little discretion in recognising this state of affairs, especially as the alternative is likely to encounter complications; namely that at any time, any one of Minarboria's 36 forum accounts could be used with nefarious intent to bump the postcount above zero and restore it to what MCS procedures would consider active status (although it would be nothing of the sort). In effect this gives even foreigners with zero privilege the power to reset the three month waiting period for Minarboria's removal (prolonging Kalgachia's disputed status), at will, for an indefinite period (I'm sure nobody wants a repeat of Gralus' absurdly protracted demise). Having that happen around a sovereign Kalgachia is a prospect I was broadly comfortable with - but to have Kalgachia languish indefinitely as 'disputed' when nobody with authority is disputing from the Minarborian side, is not something I can accept.
While I appreciate your desire to remain faithful to MCS procedure, I feel in this case that the assignment of 'disputed' status is inappropriate for a unique situation that was not envisaged when the category was introduced. An abandoned territory, as Minarboria is, cannot be assumed to dispute a secession by default. I would like to hear the position of the whole MCS Council on this, and while I don't want to be seen as lobbing threats around I would like to make it clear that Kalgachia was intended as my final option for remaining in the sector. I cannot accept Kalgchia's portrayal as a disputed territory and, in the absence of anywhere else worth settling, anything less than Kalgachia's acceptance as an undisputed territory will entail the end of the project and my departure from Micras.
The MCS Council must decide whether, in the sector's current state, a rigorous adherence to fiat justitia et pereat mundus comes before the retention of an ever-shrinking pool of contributors. It may well see fit to decide against me, in which case I'll go without any more fuss. But it's an important question and I think it should go to a full Council vote, rather than an arbitrary ruling by your good administrative self.
-
- FMS Staff
- Posts: 21546
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:37 pm
- Location: Cherry Trees, Craitland
- Contact:
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
Seemingly trying to hold us to ransom with your leaving the hobby seems a strange response to make to what was merely a suggestion on my part - you're more than welcome to not heed said suggestion and push forward with the claim as it stands, I'd rather see claims be passed smoothly, hence why I regularly give advice which I feel would make them do so
As an aside, in close relation to the point regarding nefarious intent from other Minarborian forum account holders, a similar approach from "foreigners with zero privilege" could also see them come along and undeservedly divvy-up Minarboria's land for themselves if we didn't have such rulings and precedents to which you refer in place, so the fail-safe is designed to work both ways, in effect. Should the claim not be successful in its current form and a "disputed" approach be taken instead, do you think it possible for a fleeting return from one of Minarboria's administrators to occur and for them to lock the forum to avoid any unwitting new posts and speed-up their inevitable forced removal after three months - if not an official Minarborian removal claim to be submitted from the correct powers?
I'll move the claim as it stands to the Council shortly...
As an aside, in close relation to the point regarding nefarious intent from other Minarborian forum account holders, a similar approach from "foreigners with zero privilege" could also see them come along and undeservedly divvy-up Minarboria's land for themselves if we didn't have such rulings and precedents to which you refer in place, so the fail-safe is designed to work both ways, in effect. Should the claim not be successful in its current form and a "disputed" approach be taken instead, do you think it possible for a fleeting return from one of Minarboria's administrators to occur and for them to lock the forum to avoid any unwitting new posts and speed-up their inevitable forced removal after three months - if not an official Minarborian removal claim to be submitted from the correct powers?
I'll move the claim as it stands to the Council shortly...
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
It's more than a suggestion if you attach the condition to your vote in council, as you indeed have. I maintain that I cannot accept anything other than undisputed status, or I'll have to withdraw the claim.Craitman wrote:Seemingly trying to hold us to ransom with your leaving the hobby seems a strange response to make to what was merely a suggestion on my part
Regarding your invocation of the Laqi/Elwynn/ARSE precedent, note that in all three cases the period of 'disputed' status was blissfully short because the state being seceded from was functional enough to allow a negotiated settlement. In Minarboria's case this is impossible; you are expecting me to wait out a minimum of three months (plus indefinite added time if people don't leave the Minarborian forum alone) with Kalgachia covered in awful stripes, for no particular benefit and in nobody's particular interest. I don't see a single valid reason to impose such an inelegant outcome beyond a very specific interpretation of the 'disputed' status, which in the wider circumstances is wholly inappropriate to use. It benefits nobody.
Such a scenario would be an annexation rather than a secession. You're treating the two as identical when they're anything but. My privileges in Minarboria are not absolute, but they're far from zero.Craitman wrote:As an aside, in close relation to the point regarding nefarious intent from other Minarborian forum account holders, a similar approach from "foreigners with zero privilege" could also see them come along and undeservedly divvy-up Minarboria's land for themselves if we didn't have such rulings and precedents to which you refer in place, so the fail-safe is designed to work both ways, in effect.
I agree this would avert the whole headache, but unfortunately direct contact with both Shyriath and Rossheim has been lost for a while. The intractability of the Minarborian situation is the reason I'm pushing for a little common sense here. You're empowered to wield a certain degree of discretion when the procedures are not functioning in the spirit intended; I would argue most emphatically that this is just such an occasion.Craitman wrote:do you think it possible for a fleeting return from one of Minarboria's administrators to occur and for them to lock the forum to avoid any unwitting new posts and speed-up their inevitable forced removal after three months - if not an official Minarborian removal claim to be submitted from the correct powers?
-
- FMS Staff
- Posts: 21546
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:37 pm
- Location: Cherry Trees, Craitland
- Contact:
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
It's a suggestion based on my knowledge of the Council. I can't say for certain that the claim won't pass as-is, but the unlikelihood obviously increases, so I suggest that changing it might make it more acceptable in general.Yastreb wrote:It's more than a suggestion if you attach the condition to your vote in council, as you indeed have. I maintain that I cannot accept anything other than undisputed status, or I'll have to withdraw the claim.
Elwynn remained striped for around three months before its situation was finalised and it claimed the land entirely for itself. You should be aware that the MCS takes into account more than just pure numbers when gauging a nation's activity, so if the only posts Minarboria receives in the next three months are essentially spam from someone who has some inexplicable grudge against either you or Kalgachia, that will be clear and would not count toward any activity to sustain Minarboria's land. Ultimately, we provide a service to our members which we must uphold with integrity, and benefiting our current members is what we have to prioritise. If the argument you have against the "disputed" striping is anything other than æsthetics, as a Minarborian, you should be able to at least appreciate that Minarboria is still currently a full MCS member and receives the benefits as such.Regarding your invocation of the Laqi/Elwynn/ARSE precedent, note that in all three cases the period of 'disputed' status was blissfully short because the state being seceded from was functional enough to allow a negotiated settlement. ... It benefits nobody.
Granted, the situations are different from an internal perspective, but in MCS terms, there is little difference as both involve a new nation aiming to claim land already owned by an existing member. Unless a nation's leader, or specified representative, lesser authoritative privileges don't really hold much weight, and for good reason - I'd certainly not expect Vasroe to have any power to secede from Craitland even if he did (up until very recently) hold a minor governing role.Such a scenario would be an annexation rather than a secession. You're treating the two as identical when they're anything but. My privileges in Minarboria are not absolute, but they're far from zero.
In all fairness, the whole argument regarding specific powers of authority could be quashed if both have been absent for some considerable time and you had acquired the power to represent Minarboria through an underwhelming coup. Following Hieu's departure from the community, I have taken joint-control of Tellia, for example, and the work Edgard is doing to transform Hamland post-war is done with assumed authority after the prolonged absences of the nation's other contributors. How long have both been unresponsive? If it's an adequate time, as the sole Minarborian remaining, there should be due argument for you to obtain responsibility over its land...I agree this would avert the whole headache, but unfortunately direct contact with both Shyriath and Rossheim has been lost for a while.
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
I can have all the due argument in the world but it won't get me forum or wiki admin (nor should it - I don't pay for the webspace). But as Rossheim has been gone since the beginning of the year and Shyriath since mid-May, what would be your position if I briefly put my Minarborian hat on and renounced its claim to Kalgachia in an official capacity? Absurd as such a move would be, it seems to be what you're hinting.
While I am heartened by your acceptance that random forum spam shouldn't keep Minarboria from sinking into the green abyss at its appointed time, I still consider three straight months of disputed territory status - when no dispute actually exists - to be an unnecessarily punitive regime to work under. Would you be amenable to shortening the period to three weeks? This would at least allow some time for any moribund Minarborians (Benkern, for instance) to react to the event, lest I be accused of trying to ram this through before all interests have been taken into account. That's my final offer.
And as a Minarborian I'm rather more aware than you that Minarboria has no use for such benefits, as it has been irreperably compromised as a functional member of the organisation. It also stands to retain over 95% of its undisputed territory in the wake of a Kalgachi secession, but even at such negligible cost you are proposing that Kalgachia doesn't get any undisputed territory at all.Craitman wrote:If the argument you have against the "disputed" striping is anything other than æsthetics, as a Minarborian, you should be able to at least appreciate that Minarboria is still currently a full MCS member and receives the benefits as such.
While I am heartened by your acceptance that random forum spam shouldn't keep Minarboria from sinking into the green abyss at its appointed time, I still consider three straight months of disputed territory status - when no dispute actually exists - to be an unnecessarily punitive regime to work under. Would you be amenable to shortening the period to three weeks? This would at least allow some time for any moribund Minarborians (Benkern, for instance) to react to the event, lest I be accused of trying to ram this through before all interests have been taken into account. That's my final offer.
-
- FMS Staff
- Posts: 21546
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:37 pm
- Location: Cherry Trees, Craitland
- Contact:
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
Well, if you took the reins of Minarboria, you could submit a voluntary removal on its behalf - that's more what I'm alluding to. In the same vein that having taken control of Tellia has given me the power to conduct its diplomacy, and Edgard's procuring of Hamland is leading to the creation of a successor state in Caputia, you would be able to bring Minarboria to a more dignified ending.
The three week "offer" would be a reasonable buffer time to give yourself to announce taking control of Minarboria and allow any objectors to voice their stance. After that time, given the existing time that the other notable Minarborians have deserted the nation, and assuming no remonstrance, it's fair to say I'd be happy to receive you as a proper representative of Minarboria as a whole to undertake MCS-related dealings
The three week "offer" would be a reasonable buffer time to give yourself to announce taking control of Minarboria and allow any objectors to voice their stance. After that time, given the existing time that the other notable Minarborians have deserted the nation, and assuming no remonstrance, it's fair to say I'd be happy to receive you as a proper representative of Minarboria as a whole to undertake MCS-related dealings
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
You're asking me to commit cold blooded Shrub-murder to wipe Rossheim's sentimentally-charged fiefdoms off the map... and Tieya, and Whisperwood... things I have no right to destroy. Things that others put a lot of effort into. I can't have that blood on my hands; I'd sooner walk away. True, it needs to happen, but not by my hand. It's like a vet asking someone to euthanise their own pet.
Are you sure you wouldn't be content with me just proclaiming Minarboria's recognition of Kalgachia?
What an unholy mess.
Are you sure you wouldn't be content with me just proclaiming Minarboria's recognition of Kalgachia?
What an unholy mess.
-
- FMS Staff
- Posts: 21546
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:37 pm
- Location: Cherry Trees, Craitland
- Contact:
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
Whether those dealings involve a complete removal or merely siphoning off regions for secession is entirely up to you. Reasonably obtaining the power to proclaim on Minarboria's behalf is the key element in making sure all parties are appeasedCraitman wrote:I'd be happy to receive you as a proper representative of Minarboria as a whole to undertake MCS-related dealings
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
Alright. We'll I'd like to see the non-disputed claim go through the vote first, just in case the MCS Council are feeling charitable enough to spare me such a gratuitously convoluted headache. Both of us have laid out our positions here for them to pick through.
Failing that, I'll re-submit the claim as 'disputed' while I submit a notification-to-appropriate in Minarboria, with the understanding that the 'disputed' status lasts no longer then three weeks if said notification is not contested.
Deal?
Failing that, I'll re-submit the claim as 'disputed' while I submit a notification-to-appropriate in Minarboria, with the understanding that the 'disputed' status lasts no longer then three weeks if said notification is not contested.
Deal?
-
- FMS Staff
- Posts: 21546
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:37 pm
- Location: Cherry Trees, Craitland
- Contact:
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
That's not really what I was saying would be the best approach. By all means, keep the current claim active just in case it passes sans-dispute lines, but it's more straight-forward than resubmitting multiple claims if it doesn't. Basically, put this one on hold and begin your appropriation of Minarboria. After three weeks with (hopefully) no objections, reopen this claim having gained the relevant authority to cede Minarboria's land to Khalragia. That's what I was getting at
Re: Kalgachia secession from MIN
So you want me to suspend the claim for three weeks to avoid the whole stripey business at all... I get you. The problem being, the claim is already mid-vote and you've attached the condition of 'disputed' status to your vote (as has Barnaby, it would seem). You would need to amend that condition from one of 'disputed' status to one of a three-week deferment (as would Barnaby) for the decision to reflect your suggested outcome. Otherwise the claim (if it gets the votes) stands to be applied in an undeferred, disputed form. At this stage, it's not entirely clear which of the outcomes is being voted for. You should be making that a little clearer, for the sake of the Council if nobody else.
Anyway, as the whole Minarborian coup thing appears to be a prerequisite, I've gone ahead and begun it. Shrub have mercy.
Anyway, as the whole Minarborian coup thing appears to be a prerequisite, I've gone ahead and begun it. Shrub have mercy.