Hub.mn

With the Treisenberger departure from the east of the Cibolan continent, we felt it prudent to claim the Volsburg area. That way we can maintain neighbourly relations with Caputia and Craitman and have trade. This will increase our activity.

We realize though that we ought to vacate some territory. Accordingly, we removed a large blob of Elijah's Rest, bigger than the territory claimed on Cibola. We decided to then claim some of ancestral lands of the reindeer herders (there is a political party in ELijah's Rest organizing reinherders) along the coast and on the island north of the Norse mainland. However, I still think this means a slight overall reduction.

If there are any questions, I'll happily answer them.

/Ric, being chancellor of Natopia (as Li) (contact me via Discord PM if there's anything you want to raise privately).

Oops, I just saw some scattered grey bits in the Green just north of the "a" in Hagbard. To clarify, we're not claiming those small pieces

Do you intend on addressing the Pallisican troops which continue to occupy the various cities which you're claiming here? Or are you just gonna let them hang out? And what about the industry which has been established in these areas? I assume you're gonna let me keep all of that.

We're at war, man... if you do industry in the Green, we have every right to kick you out from it (or massacre your people) once we've been given the sovereignty over it. You'd better vacate before something bad happens

NewZimiaGov wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:56 am

I assume you're gonna let me keep all of that.

Don't assume anything regarding land you don't claim for yourself, I'd say

Ric wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:59 am

We're at war, man... if you do industry in the Green, we have every right to kick you out from it (or massacre your people) once we've been given the sovereignty over it. You'd better vacate before something bad happens

If you massacre my people I'll just start using your people. That's pretty clear by now, isn't it? Why would I stop just because the war ends, unless there is an explicit agreement to do so via treaty? If you want me to stop using this land you'll need to ask me very nicely. Otherwise show me where in the charter it says that I'm obligated to stop using this land. To get you pointed in the right direction, I'll direct you* to Article 14 Section 1 and 2 as being the closest it comes to doing so. It doesn't exactly apply because I don't exactly make any formal existing claims to the land in question. I merely use it. And I have merely used it since prior to any indication that you were going to. Is the MCS going to tell me that I have to remove the companies in question from my list of companies?

Don't assume anything regarding land you don't claim for yourself, I'd say

Come on. I obviously don't actually assume that. I simply don't think they have any means to ensure I won't. That is, again, where treaties would eventually come in to play.

You have full right to dictate whatever happens on land that you, as a sovereign, own. The land in question is not your sovereign territory (and not Natopia's either... yet). If it becomes Natopian sovereign territory, you will be bound by Natopia's laws.

If you want to make business in Natopian territory, I would advise you to offer Natopia a peace treaty. If not, we'll expell all enemy citizens, confiscate enemy resources, as is Natopia's right under international law. You have not claimed the area, and therefore you have no rights to it.

If you don't want for either of these options to occur, I would strongly advise that you leave the territory immediately before Natopia takes sovereign possession of it.

I frankly have no incentive to leave the land, and you have already demonstrated - throughout this entire campaign - your inability to expel my forces. I have no incentive to offer you a treaty here. If you want to make a legitimate claim you'll need to work out the kinks.

Edit: I do think this claim seems to come somewhat out of the blue, especially given that there's been no effort to expel my forces or industry in any sense or regard at any point during the war thus far. Natopia doesn't really have control of any of these lands at all. If they did, they should have included it in their war development. As it is, this claim seems more spiteful than, you know, planned and cultivated.

All things said, I don't actually object to Natopia claiming this land. They're obviously within their rights to claim sections of the green how the please. I am, however, aggravated that they're basically pretending that the entire past 1.5 months hasn't happened, that Pallisican/Haifan forces aren't present in abundance across the region, and that they can do as they please in spite of development which has been agreed upon, or at the very least has been mutually recognized. If Natopia demonstrates that they can remove my forces from these cities - through force or diplomacy - then that is excellent. Until then, this claim is petty, shortsighted, and undeserving of an affirmative vote by anyone. I honestly don't see any forum or wiki development that indicates that this claim was in the works. Compare this to my own recent claim in the region, which was months in high quality, transparent development.

Sorry, but how is this claim not legitimate? And who are you to decide on it anyway? That’s why we have a council. You really want any nation to be able to be able to negate a claim just because you say you have people in the green there? That’s a slippery slope leading nowhere good.

No need to apologize, this is a public forum.

I'm not actually questioning legitimacy, as you'll see I've explained in my edit. I am questioning intent and practicality. You really don't have a basis to make this claim. Do you have any links that demonstrate you've had a presence in all these regions over the past month, at least? I have a lot of evidence that you have not.

We’ll let the council decide whether or not we have a basis, whatever that means.

And as for intent and practicality, those are the Natopian’s business unless the council requests more information.

So that's a firm "no" then. This claim isn't backed by any development whatsoever. If it could be backed up, the claim would refer to more than a mere mention of "ancestral ties." But hey, look at that, you already have an AYE! Fanciful claims made on a spiteful whim are at least as valid as claims made on the basis of months of legitimate, thoughtful development, according to some.

Edit: The council shouldn't have to request more information. You should be able to be forthright with your super high quality development, which you've so thoughtfully labored over for the past several months. Why not? Your work is so good, why not substantiate your claims at the outset?

You know what I think? If the council asks you for more evidence, that'll give you the chance to throw some BS together. You don't have anything yet, but you can put something together if you need to. How swell for you.

NewZimiaGov wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:32 am

So that's a firm "no" then. This claim isn't backed by any development whatsoever. If it could, the claim referred to more than a mere mention of "ancestral ties." But hey, look at that, you already have an AYE! Fanciful claims made on a spiteful whim are at least as valid as claims made on the basis of months of legitimate, thoughtful development, according to some.

Edit: The council shouldn't have to request more information. You should be able to be forthright with your super high quality development, which you've so thoughtfully labored over for the past several months. Why not? Your work is so good, why not substantiate your claims at the outset?

You know what I think? If the council asks you for more evidence, that'll give you the chance to throw some BS together. You don't have anything yet, but you can put something together if you need to. How swell for you.

This is the system we've all agreed to. I see in this claim a country taking control over some prime real estate that's been developed a bit and happens to throw a wrench in the USSO's (an organization hostile to the claimant) control over a significant body of water. If you weren't comfortable with the possibility of other's claiming the land, you could have claimed it at any time. Also, no one's spiting anyone, this is a hobby we do for fun. And let me reiterate that: Nothing in this hobby should ever be taken personally. Most of us have never even really met.

Ryker wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:42 am

This is the system we've all agreed to. I see in this claim a country taking control over some prime real estate that's been developed a bit and happens to throw a wrench in the USSO's (an organization hostile to the claimant) control over a significant body of water. If you weren't comfortable with the possibility of other's claiming the land, you could have claimed it at any time. Also, no one's spiting anyone, this is a hobby we do for fun. And let me reiterate that: Nothing in this hobby should ever be taken personally. Most of us have never even really met.

The system which I've personally agreed to is one which requires that nations clearly and obviously put more than a day's thought into their claims, which should serve as realistic representations of their collective bodies of work. Hence the work that I do to make my product good, and my claims meaningful. When claims such as this get approved, it demeans and devalues the actual work which is done by others. It sends the message that you don't actually have to work on your claims. At least not if you're affiliated with certain nations, perhaps.

Again, all I've done is asked for a single bit of evidence that this claim has been in the works for more than the past few days, and that you have a practical explanation for addressing the presence the extensive Pallisican and Haifain regional occupation and industry. It seems you haven't thought about this, else you'd have evidence that you have been working on it. So, where is it?