Lessons from Hamland
Lessons from Hamland
Over the years I've attempted to create models for economies to work with in micronations. hamland had 2 which worked to varying degrees. This was mainly because I didn't have a good working knowledge of economics. It was always one of my favourite things about Hamland that we used to do things differently as it is always good to have differing approaches. The one problem the old approaches used to have is that they used to be too centralised and controlled and not natural enough.
I do have a question before I start. What state is the SCUE in? It looks fairly dead and I know my stuff about aunified economies and could probably diagnose a few problems with it.
The idea of an economy being "natural" refers to the fact we keep trying to create commodities that nobody really wants. Andreas had a good list of things to produce, but really that should be up to people competing in the market to decide for themselves. Our old approaches in Hamland were trying to link the macro with the micro and that just never worked because we were trying to achieve different things. Micronations have to decide whether they want to simulate being a real state or they want to find systems which can apply to administering a micro state. These require totally differing approaches.
SCUE seems to have worked out things well with having a limited and realistic money supply. The problem I see with it is that the money in circulation varies vastly over time because people come and go and countries rise and fall pretty quickly. There are political solutions to that.
If I was to make basic criticisms of all micronational economies it is that they are trying to do too much. Countries need to start small with a basic money supply divided and use it to trade for things people want. Andreas had some good ideas there. Drawing a detailed house for someone, a nice signature or whatever and charging for it creates a desire for money as it allows for people to want things. If currency starts bottom up then things such as trade between countries becomes eaiser. It shouldn't be outrageously hard to trade in differing currencies as these things should develop naturally.
Those are just my thoughts. Apologies if it is a boring rant. I was always on the outside of these things as this community has an incredible ability to make things unneccesarily difficult.
I do have a question before I start. What state is the SCUE in? It looks fairly dead and I know my stuff about aunified economies and could probably diagnose a few problems with it.
The idea of an economy being "natural" refers to the fact we keep trying to create commodities that nobody really wants. Andreas had a good list of things to produce, but really that should be up to people competing in the market to decide for themselves. Our old approaches in Hamland were trying to link the macro with the micro and that just never worked because we were trying to achieve different things. Micronations have to decide whether they want to simulate being a real state or they want to find systems which can apply to administering a micro state. These require totally differing approaches.
SCUE seems to have worked out things well with having a limited and realistic money supply. The problem I see with it is that the money in circulation varies vastly over time because people come and go and countries rise and fall pretty quickly. There are political solutions to that.
If I was to make basic criticisms of all micronational economies it is that they are trying to do too much. Countries need to start small with a basic money supply divided and use it to trade for things people want. Andreas had some good ideas there. Drawing a detailed house for someone, a nice signature or whatever and charging for it creates a desire for money as it allows for people to want things. If currency starts bottom up then things such as trade between countries becomes eaiser. It shouldn't be outrageously hard to trade in differing currencies as these things should develop naturally.
Those are just my thoughts. Apologies if it is a boring rant. I was always on the outside of these things as this community has an incredible ability to make things unneccesarily difficult.
Re: Lessons from Hamland
SCUE is not dead... we continue to use it.
In case you hadn't noticed the fetid swamp has been largely drained and even in this last stagnant pond the majority of fish have already died and are rotting on the surface. - Prophet Ardy
Re: Lessons from Hamland
I wasn't saying that. It seems pretty inactive here though for what is an economy which spans several countries. What state is it in?
Re: Lessons from Hamland
The SCUE is an international banking system established by treaty. It is "in" around 25 active countries, who used it to different extents. It's not brilliant, but it works, ish.
Formerly His Imperial Niftiness Yardistanislaus du Grifos, former Kaiser of Shireroth
Now just Vilhelm Benkern, Count of Mar Sara
Suzerain of Hawshire // Peil̊åkti an Ixraǔtn | Protector of the Safir // Xonuti Shawa 'allumi Sanilla'i'i | King of the Free State of Sanilla
Now just Vilhelm Benkern, Count of Mar Sara
Suzerain of Hawshire // Peil̊åkti an Ixraǔtn | Protector of the Safir // Xonuti Shawa 'allumi Sanilla'i'i | King of the Free State of Sanilla
Re: Lessons from Hamland
Cool. I'll try to keep up with developments. Have asked my mate to join Neo-Patrova to help develop our market and see if we can make it grow. As it's eonomic I can keep people updated with the logic behind what we are doing there.
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Re: Lessons from Hamland
Generally I'd agree with your comments on micronational economics. As others have said, the SCUE isn't dead (the Dutch sector use it quite a lot), but generally there isn't much micronational economic activity going on across the board, so it's slow (sadly, despite my best efforts, there are still nations who sign up, get their starting money, then NEVER DO ANYTHING WITH IT ). But if you want to buy something in pretty much any country that has an economy, you can do it through the SCUE now. We just need more people who actually want to buy ...
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
- rosskilder
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Re: Lessons from Hamland
Agree with that. The key to a workable economy - where money actually flows, in some direction other than payment of government salaries - is to have scarcity and necessity. Where a product or a service is necessary, people will seek to obtain it. Where it is also scarce, people will pay for it.Gordoth wrote:The idea of an economy being "natural" refers to the fact we keep trying to create commodities that nobody really wants.
We make it really really terribly amazingly easy in forum-based micronationalism, in that we literally give away our in-sim money. All those games that people play on the net which require purchase of in-game resources with real-world money - they have hundreds of thousands of gamers! Clearly their product is more attractive, and contains a lot of things which are necessary and scarce.
But back to our situation. Having given away the money, what else is being given away which should be bought? Access to different forum areas? Information? Assistance? - it is notable that newbies to micronations often get the same sort of welcome. "Hi there, welcome to our nation. Would you like to be Minister of Silly Walks?" And the newbie, having a thimbleful of an idea of what the micronation is all about, gets scared off because their knowledge of Silly Walks is minimal and unfortunately there seems to be nothing else to do around that nation.
So the requirement is clear: Have some real, tangible goods and services which members and visitors to the micronation will want and need, and which are scarce enough to be valuable.
We've got things going in Gotzborg - there are actual things a person can buy, which are scarce (although their "necessity" is purely for their entertainment value). And we've stayed out of the SCUE for the explicit reason that having a domestic-only currency tied directly into the forum (a) is an efficient one-registration system, and (b) makes it necessary to participate in the forum in order to participate in the economy, and (c) acts as a spur to next-level activity such as commercial banking, which facilitates currency exchange and start-up funding for newcomers.
Sir Ross Kilder KLG, of the County of Kendal
Vice-Minister Commerce and Industry
Royal Kingdom of Gotzborg
Vice-Minister Commerce and Industry
Royal Kingdom of Gotzborg
- Lord_Montague
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Re: Lessons from Hamland
I agree mainly with what both Ross and Gordoth have said. The huge problem in Micronations is what to do with the wealth that is acquired. Sure, you can trade things for money, but then for what purpose is that money required. So you can sit on a fake gold hoard? It doesn't really matter all that much. What we need in Micronations is a commodities and luxuries market.
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In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
Re: Lessons from Hamland
This problem is true. Ultimately it is up to people to fill that gap though. The onus is on citizens to create thing other people want. For now Patrova is 'outsourcing' things to bidders but states need something to tax to keep funding it. Also, there needs to be a market involving citizens needing things.
Have been trying to think of ways to buy houses. The problem is that unless not having a house harms you then there is no real need for one.
Have been trying to think of ways to buy houses. The problem is that unless not having a house harms you then there is no real need for one.
- Lord_Montague
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Re: Lessons from Hamland
I have wondered in the past whether it might be wise to introduce a housing market by stating that to participate in politics (particularly in Alexandria) you need to be a property owner. Alternatively, with an Alexandrian bent again, I've wondered whether it might be worthwhile creating a set of titles for the sole intention of selling them to the highest bidder.
In Battle; Unbeatable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
In Victory; Unbearable.
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Re: Lessons from Hamland
Gotzborg had a (fairly) successful housing market in 2006, with 6+ individuals purchasing mortgages on some of the properties offered. The fault of the system as it was designed however was that it used a 30 year mortgage period to provide some realism to the economic simulation, rather than focusing on a pricing/time frame that would allow a person to purchase the property in a more reasonable micronational timeframe. Secondly, there was really no integration of the housing market into the wider operation of the community. Once you bought the property, the only thing you could do with it was sell it again - there was no means of "using" it or system for "maintaining" it.
The second fault is really the deal-breaker for offering simulated property in our economies. It's fine as an option to buy/sell and generate some limited tax revenue for the micronation, but in order for a micronational economy to succeed, the goods/products offered must ultimately roll into other goods/products. That is, if a person purchases a house, the economy succeeds if the person has to maintain it, purchasing further related household products, etc. This creates a demand for a range of products based on the property; but, unfortunately, it requires a level of administration that most micronations cannot spare the human resources for.
The second fault is really the deal-breaker for offering simulated property in our economies. It's fine as an option to buy/sell and generate some limited tax revenue for the micronation, but in order for a micronational economy to succeed, the goods/products offered must ultimately roll into other goods/products. That is, if a person purchases a house, the economy succeeds if the person has to maintain it, purchasing further related household products, etc. This creates a demand for a range of products based on the property; but, unfortunately, it requires a level of administration that most micronations cannot spare the human resources for.
- pawelabrams
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Re: Lessons from Hamland
This could be achieved by having a good amount of NPCs, though. But still - does any micronation have so much will to complete a working system of simulated supply and demand?
Pavel' Abramovic:, the President of Interland
IRL just a random guy from Poland. Still learning English.
IRL just a random guy from Poland. Still learning English.