Reforming the SCUE
Reforming the SCUE
I would like to open a thread about reforming the SCUE. As much as I agree with its founding principles, it appears to have been struggling. In Hamland, I've had to resort to pressing for another currency so that we can carry out transactions. The state of micronational economics can be seen as nothing more than a crisis, as production in return for money appears to be something that is not happening.
I have been trying to lead the way with a unilateral solution in Hamland, but feel that at this point it may be time to recruit the help of others. I therefore open a discussion in order to gauge where the rest of the community wish to see the SCUE and Micrasian economies progressing.
I have been trying to lead the way with a unilateral solution in Hamland, but feel that at this point it may be time to recruit the help of others. I therefore open a discussion in order to gauge where the rest of the community wish to see the SCUE and Micrasian economies progressing.
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Re: Reforming the SCUE
Trust me, I've been trying with Vyktory. No-one seems to give a shit. It sucks, clearly.
To be fair, all Vyktory really wanted was a stock market simulation anyway, that's pretty much all we use the SCUE for apart from trying to get production done. VykMotors is dead, VykMaps is a non-starter and who knows about Jarokn Games...
That being said, we want to find a new solution for micronational economics as much as you do. We'll gladly help out.
To be fair, all Vyktory really wanted was a stock market simulation anyway, that's pretty much all we use the SCUE for apart from trying to get production done. VykMotors is dead, VykMaps is a non-starter and who knows about Jarokn Games...
That being said, we want to find a new solution for micronational economics as much as you do. We'll gladly help out.
Vyktoryan King/Founder (as King James I)
Hoennese King/Founder (As King Matsu)
Dragon lover, fantasy buff, avid gamer, furry fandom member, self-published author/musician, and sports freak.
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Hoennese King/Founder (As King Matsu)
Dragon lover, fantasy buff, avid gamer, furry fandom member, self-published author/musician, and sports freak.
Teams I Love: New York Mets/Tampa Bay Buccaneers/Chicago Bulls/New York City FC/Manchester United/AFC Wimbledon/Melbourne City/Healesville SC/Melbourne Storm/Richmond Tigers/Melbourne Rebels
Games I Love: Rocket League/Football Manager/Pro Evolution Soccer/Let's Make A Soccer Team!/Pokemon/Cities: Skylines/The Elder Scrolls/FIFA Manager/Magic: The Gathering/Super Smash Bros.
Re: Reforming the SCUE
I'm happy to try and keep this discussion rolling on and get more attention, but I'm more than happy to sort something bi-laterally if we can.
Well the most basic problem we have is getting a means of exchange sorted and somewhere to do it. I am keen on on-board money, which would be exchangeable between states. So long as we have an accepted system of money, that is fine. Sharing a currency makes sense across communities, but I'm sceptical as to how achievable that is considering people have so much SCUE money.
Using the SCUE's currency system without the stock market would be my preference. The stock market had a few unintended consequences that made our economy politically hard to manage and also allowed people to accumulate quite a lot of money (which has political consequences, alongside making things difficult for new members). The Zenar, our new currency, is basically an answer to this in the short term, but it we have to look at how we implement it as it all looks rosy on paper.
Well the most basic problem we have is getting a means of exchange sorted and somewhere to do it. I am keen on on-board money, which would be exchangeable between states. So long as we have an accepted system of money, that is fine. Sharing a currency makes sense across communities, but I'm sceptical as to how achievable that is considering people have so much SCUE money.
Using the SCUE's currency system without the stock market would be my preference. The stock market had a few unintended consequences that made our economy politically hard to manage and also allowed people to accumulate quite a lot of money (which has political consequences, alongside making things difficult for new members). The Zenar, our new currency, is basically an answer to this in the short term, but it we have to look at how we implement it as it all looks rosy on paper.
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Re: Reforming the SCUE
Indeed, I'd like a bi-lateral agreement, but it would be nice for other nations to be able to join too.Lewis wrote:I'm happy to try and keep this discussion rolling on and get more attention, but I'm more than happy to sort something bi-laterally if we can.
Well the most basic problem we have is getting a means of exchange sorted and somewhere to do it. I am keen on on-board money, which would be exchangeable between states. So long as we have an accepted system of money, that is fine. Sharing a currency makes sense across communities, but I'm sceptical as to how achievable that is considering people have so much SCUE money.
Using the SCUE's currency system without the stock market would be my preference. The stock market had a few unintended consequences that made our economy politically hard to manage and also allowed people to accumulate quite a lot of money (which has political consequences, alongside making things difficult for new members). The Zenar, our new currency, is basically an answer to this in the short term, but it we have to look at how we implement it as it all looks rosy on paper.
As you said, the main issue with SCUE is the concentration of most of the wealth in certain places. Another factor is some using it as an in-sim thing, others using it for OOC micronation work and others further still not using it at all. I think if we did create a new currency, we'd have to keep like-minded member states that use it for the same things, whether IC or OOC. The Zenar could use one, while another currency could use the other.
And yes, the stock marked it implemented a bit oddly, and it has caused even more wealth to come out. If you look at say, the ASTEX or the NSX, the prices over in those exchanges are astronomical compared to say, the VYK. i daresay the activity based adjustments, which only really go up, have caused mass inflation.
Speaking of which, I don't think we've even opened diplomatic relations, so I'm going to do that first. I'll go make an account on the Hammish forums now. haha
Vyktoryan King/Founder (as King James I)
Hoennese King/Founder (As King Matsu)
Dragon lover, fantasy buff, avid gamer, furry fandom member, self-published author/musician, and sports freak.
Teams I Love: New York Mets/Tampa Bay Buccaneers/Chicago Bulls/New York City FC/Manchester United/AFC Wimbledon/Melbourne City/Healesville SC/Melbourne Storm/Richmond Tigers/Melbourne Rebels
Games I Love: Rocket League/Football Manager/Pro Evolution Soccer/Let's Make A Soccer Team!/Pokemon/Cities: Skylines/The Elder Scrolls/FIFA Manager/Magic: The Gathering/Super Smash Bros.
Hoennese King/Founder (As King Matsu)
Dragon lover, fantasy buff, avid gamer, furry fandom member, self-published author/musician, and sports freak.
Teams I Love: New York Mets/Tampa Bay Buccaneers/Chicago Bulls/New York City FC/Manchester United/AFC Wimbledon/Melbourne City/Healesville SC/Melbourne Storm/Richmond Tigers/Melbourne Rebels
Games I Love: Rocket League/Football Manager/Pro Evolution Soccer/Let's Make A Soccer Team!/Pokemon/Cities: Skylines/The Elder Scrolls/FIFA Manager/Magic: The Gathering/Super Smash Bros.
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Re: Reforming the SCUE
Gotzborg also uses an on-board monetary system for its economy as opposed to participating in SCUE, primarily because it provides greater control over putting currency into circulation in a specific amount (i.e. if all the "bank interest" and "automatic payment" options of the on-board system are disabled, the government sets the total amount of currency in circulation). That is something that SCUE doesn't quite do as well as an on-board system (the SCX randomly creates new currency to cover profits, for example, causing an imbalance).Well the most basic problem we have is getting a means of exchange sorted and somewhere to do it. I am keen on on-board money, which would be exchangeable between states. So long as we have an accepted system of money, that is fine. Sharing a currency makes sense across communities, but I'm sceptical as to how achievable that is considering people have so much SCUE money.
SCUE is however an excellent banking system for those micronations that aren't concerned over monetary policy. One of the difficulties that SCUE solved for this community was to provide a common banking platform that did away with the quirks of a formula-based currency exchange system that relied on a very subjective set of criteria, such as "active citizens", which is no longer a very good measure in the community since we're far more laid back in terms of regular activity. In adopting a common currency, SCUE made cross-border trade a seemless transaction, and it continues to serve that purpose.
Back to Gotzborg, we set out own exchange rates for the purpose of facilitating cross-border trade; however, these are done rather informally as opposed to being based on a specific monetary exchange formula, as such a formula requires widespread acceptance amongst the participants.
I would suggest that one thing we can work on together, which is not reform of the SCUE per-say, is to develop a more objective currency exchange formula between SCUE and those micronations that use an on-board system, so that we can at least standardized the exchange rate between SCUE and non-SCUE currencies, in order to ensure the most effective intermicronational marketplace possible (as not everyone will want to join SCUE and it would be unrealistic to aim for such total domination). Personally, I think this should be our primary goal given that there are several independent currencies outside of SCUE at the moment (Hamland, Passio-Corum, Gotzborg, to name a few).
SCUE's software is hardly something to do away with, and I would not suggest that we chop off the stock market function. Rather, how can we better integrate currency management into the stock market function, etc?
At the end of the day, any software modifications need Andreas' blessing, and we need a competent programmed to implement the changes (I am not very good at programming, as my career path has taken me away from that aspect of my training to the point where I haven't coded in a decade).
Re: Reforming the SCUE
Ah, the micronational economy problem, rehashed for the umpteenth time. What SCUE lacks, that in essence all micronational economies lack, is necessity. You don't need to use the system to get by or even to make transactions, so you sidestep it. I'm beginning to believe that this problem is unsolvable, at least if we are talking about a real functioning economy. The bottom of the line is that it's a hassle for people to participate, so they don't, unless they are hardcore enthusiasts. That coupled with unrealistic amounts (very low numbers for huge countries), no inflation, basically no tradable assets, and no scarcity, you get a system that works on the surface, but isn't used much.
For the sake of clarity, I think the SCUE bank is a good platform and probably the best attempt at a micronational economy I've ever seen, but it still doesn't work. Either the solution is even more of the same, or it's something completely different. An interesting experiment would be a nation that is built on its economic simulation, a nation where participation in the economy is mandatory.
For the sake of clarity, I think the SCUE bank is a good platform and probably the best attempt at a micronational economy I've ever seen, but it still doesn't work. Either the solution is even more of the same, or it's something completely different. An interesting experiment would be a nation that is built on its economic simulation, a nation where participation in the economy is mandatory.
Re: Reforming the SCUE
I appreciate Gotzborg's position on the matter, as their objections were very clear. The problem with the SCUE, I would argue, is political. Control over supply and so on is al fine and well if you delegate it, but when the system needs changed or there are some interests which win over others then there is a problem. The stock market function had huge unintended consequences for us and, as a result, we had to facilitate two models at once (of which one has fallen to the wayside). Gotzborg has control over its own system and so only appeases the views of its constituent members.
The new second currency of Hamland is moving in that direction. I really want us to have an on-board currency system too, although that isn't presently possible for software reasons. I am reluctant to leave the SCUE, as we have still got an interest in reform rather than rejection, but if we have to we will.
I think the problem isn't with scarcity, but that people often do things on a forum for reasons which are't "rational"; it's fun. I don't produce maps because I can earn on-board cash, but because I want to see the country grow. The utility comes from the success of the nation and not the monetary bonus for me. I do see a role for money in the sweetening of deals, in buying, trading and registering property, in getting someone to produce something for you. In this sense, it also helps trade as it gives something to make people do something which doesn't actually help their own nation.
I have an odd memory of Micras, as I am here on an on-and-off basis, but I think SCUE is pretty old now. I do think it worked fairly well. The answer could be a type of the same, as I think the theory is fine, or it could be something new. That's up to everyone to decide in a thread like this.
The new second currency of Hamland is moving in that direction. I really want us to have an on-board currency system too, although that isn't presently possible for software reasons. I am reluctant to leave the SCUE, as we have still got an interest in reform rather than rejection, but if we have to we will.
I think the problem isn't with scarcity, but that people often do things on a forum for reasons which are't "rational"; it's fun. I don't produce maps because I can earn on-board cash, but because I want to see the country grow. The utility comes from the success of the nation and not the monetary bonus for me. I do see a role for money in the sweetening of deals, in buying, trading and registering property, in getting someone to produce something for you. In this sense, it also helps trade as it gives something to make people do something which doesn't actually help their own nation.
I have an odd memory of Micras, as I am here on an on-and-off basis, but I think SCUE is pretty old now. I do think it worked fairly well. The answer could be a type of the same, as I think the theory is fine, or it could be something new. That's up to everyone to decide in a thread like this.
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Re: Reforming the SCUE
In the past there was such a country, and it was called Anthelia, but it became inactive and merged into Gotzborg.Malliki wrote:For the sake of clarity, I think the SCUE bank is a good platform and probably the best attempt at a micronational economy I've ever seen, but it still doesn't work. Either the solution is even more of the same, or it's something completely different. An interesting experiment would be a nation that is built on its economic simulation, a nation where participation in the economy is mandatory.
Harald Freyjugjöf the Generous Giver of the House of the Descendants of Freyja
High King of Stormark
Sovereign Lord on all Continents
High King of Stormark
Sovereign Lord on all Continents
Re: Reforming the SCUE
Yeah, forcing people to participate in something does usually not contribute to activity.
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Re: Reforming the SCUE
It doesn't?Malliki wrote:Yeah, forcing people to participate in something does usually not contribute to activity.
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Re: Reforming the SCUE
I'd like to point out that it's been over a year since I wrote an essay which addresses every problem every single problem you've mentioned, and so far, I have yet to receive a valid comprehensive rebuttal explaining how my ideas don't work. Right now it's mostly been vague, scary sounding phrases like "unintended consequences." The only one who has made an effort to provide a meaningful rebuttal is Liam, and for what it's worth, I took his input to heart.Ah, the micronational economy problem, rehashed for the umpteenth time. What SCUE lacks, that in essence all micronational economies lack, is necessity. You don't need to use the system to get by or even to make transactions, so you sidestep it. I'm beginning to believe that this problem is unsolvable, at least if we are talking about a real functioning economy. The bottom of the line is that it's a hassle for people to participate, so they don't, unless they are hardcore enthusiasts. That coupled with unrealistic amounts (very low numbers for huge countries), no inflation, basically no tradable assets, and no scarcity, you get a system that works on the surface, but isn't used much.
I made SCUE work for my countries, and now I've figured out how to make economics work without SCUE. If you want to find out how, or if you want to prove me wrong, you know where to find me. If not, that's fine. I'll keep doing what I do, and I'll keep getting better at it as I do.
""YJD: Een Recwar is prima zolang Bijaro niet deelneemt."
Re: Reforming the SCUE
So you have a working economy at the moment?
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Re: Reforming the SCUE
I do. It's the basis of the New Zimian state, as you'll see if you visit the forum.
""YJD: Een Recwar is prima zolang Bijaro niet deelneemt."
Re: Reforming the SCUE
That's provocative . I think I was quite thorough. I think the market gave the unintended consequence of your model coming out of it, not that your model had any (as far as I know) unintended consequences.Duke Sinclair wrote:I'd like to point out that it's been over a year since I wrote an essay which addresses every problem every single problem you've mentioned, and so far, I have yet to receive a valid comprehensive rebuttal explaining how my ideas don't work. Right now it's mostly been vague, scary sounding phrases like "unintended consequences." The only one who has made an effort to provide a meaningful rebuttal is Liam, and for what it's worth, I took his input to heart.Ah, the micronational economy problem, rehashed for the umpteenth time. What SCUE lacks, that in essence all micronational economies lack, is necessity. You don't need to use the system to get by or even to make transactions, so you sidestep it. I'm beginning to believe that this problem is unsolvable, at least if we are talking about a real functioning economy. The bottom of the line is that it's a hassle for people to participate, so they don't, unless they are hardcore enthusiasts. That coupled with unrealistic amounts (very low numbers for huge countries), no inflation, basically no tradable assets, and no scarcity, you get a system that works on the surface, but isn't used much.
I made SCUE work for my countries, and now I've figured out how to make economics work without SCUE. If you want to find out how, or if you want to prove me wrong, you know where to find me. If not, that's fine. I'll keep doing what I do, and I'll keep getting better at it as I do.
I do want to have a look into your economy. I read through the posts on the forum, but appreciate any help in finding the right forum posts. I'm interested as to how it could work with a single person, as most of the ideas I'm putting forward are for trading involving more than one person.
Re: Reforming the SCUE
Sorry, I meant an economy. I can also post charts over various simulated goods and other statistics.