Council Members' Declared Interests
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Council Members' Declared Interests
Hi,
I was just thinking perhaps Council Members upon voting should be obliged to declare their reasons for accepting or rejecting MCS claims? At the moment just posting AYE or NAY seems to suffice which is of little help to newer nations who may wonder exactly what they can do before trying to claim again. There is also the fact that if some want to appeal a Council decision it would help them to have the members' justifications for their decision.
In my opinion this would go a long way to creating a freer, fairer, and more transparent council.
Max
I was just thinking perhaps Council Members upon voting should be obliged to declare their reasons for accepting or rejecting MCS claims? At the moment just posting AYE or NAY seems to suffice which is of little help to newer nations who may wonder exactly what they can do before trying to claim again. There is also the fact that if some want to appeal a Council decision it would help them to have the members' justifications for their decision.
In my opinion this would go a long way to creating a freer, fairer, and more transparent council.
Max
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Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
I think when a claim's going to get a nay vote, then we usually say what we're not accepting it for. For ayes, it's normally pretty easy to understand when a nation's deserving of a claim/expansion. I think voting nay, at least on claims/expansions, is likely to be more controversial than voting aye, so I always give my reasons (and I tend to vote first) - I guess if nobody else gives a reason afterwards, they've agreed with mine! And when a new nation's claim is denied, there's normally an explanation as to why when the claim's stamped
Granted, we do tend to just whack an "AYE" down when we think it's obvious that something should be accepted - especially tiny modifications - and we could add a small explanation, but usually the nation has expanded (for example) because they've gone through an activity boost, so it's accepted. I agree though, we do need to start giving a bit more feedback and opinions - or at least saying we agree with another person's reason for voting the way they did - when something's denied
Granted, we do tend to just whack an "AYE" down when we think it's obvious that something should be accepted - especially tiny modifications - and we could add a small explanation, but usually the nation has expanded (for example) because they've gone through an activity boost, so it's accepted. I agree though, we do need to start giving a bit more feedback and opinions - or at least saying we agree with another person's reason for voting the way they did - when something's denied
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Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
I was about to omit this thread, because I agree with Craitman. But then it came to me that it should be voiced xD
Pavel' Abramovic:, the President of Interland
IRL just a random guy from Poland. Still learning English.
IRL just a random guy from Poland. Still learning English.
Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
AYE.
...Er, that is, yes, Craitman's explanation makes sense. Although if I could offer a minor point in addition: in tandem with seeking criteria for activity in forum-less nations, we might also want to expand a bit on activity-related reasons for AYE votes for those same nations.
For example, if a micronation applying for membership is wiki-based, and has citizens W, X, and Y, and we've already decided that, say, activity is based on a count of total edits by those citizens in the past Z number of months (I'm just choosing this stuff at random), then it might be a good idea to mention the specific number in the reasoning, along the lines of "our guidelines mandate that the citizens of wiki-based micronations need to have 10 edits per month, and these guys are keeping up an average of 15." Or something like that.
...Er, that is, yes, Craitman's explanation makes sense. Although if I could offer a minor point in addition: in tandem with seeking criteria for activity in forum-less nations, we might also want to expand a bit on activity-related reasons for AYE votes for those same nations.
For example, if a micronation applying for membership is wiki-based, and has citizens W, X, and Y, and we've already decided that, say, activity is based on a count of total edits by those citizens in the past Z number of months (I'm just choosing this stuff at random), then it might be a good idea to mention the specific number in the reasoning, along the lines of "our guidelines mandate that the citizens of wiki-based micronations need to have 10 edits per month, and these guys are keeping up an average of 15." Or something like that.
By the hand of
Shyriath Bukolos, aka Shyriath Farstrider, Harbinger of Cheese
He who has been
Shyriath Bukolos, aka Shyriath Farstrider, Harbinger of Cheese
He who has been
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Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
Ah yeah, that reminds me, we should really get onto defining "activity" for wiki-based nations soon. I like the edits idea, but that could be flaunted with non-constructive edits (although the same goes with spamming on forums to boost post counts, I guess) - maybe we could combine it with forum contributions on here/MicroWiki/OAM, or something. We used to ask forumless nations to contribute here every now and again, so we knew they were still going, but they didn't have active wiki pages like these guys
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Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
Maybe about information they provide? At least two quality news notes per month seems quite fair to me.
Pavel' Abramovic:, the President of Interland
IRL just a random guy from Poland. Still learning English.
IRL just a random guy from Poland. Still learning English.
Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
There are a number of systems for guaging a micronation here:
http://micronations.wikia.com/wiki/Bood ... sification
Perhaps using one of them or something could help with this issue.
http://micronations.wikia.com/wiki/Bood ... sification
Perhaps using one of them or something could help with this issue.
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Tarjei Einhornsson - Grand Marshal of The Nordic Union
Zand Gozâr - Grand Vizier & Satrap of Kumarastan, Kingdom of Babkha
Tarjei Einhornsson - Grand Marshal of The Nordic Union
Zand Gozâr - Grand Vizier & Satrap of Kumarastan, Kingdom of Babkha
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Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
Those are really for gauging development rather than activity, but I guess we could use one or two of them as a basis for what contributes a wikination's activity/culture. I think we need a quantitative standard, like we do with forums, for them, so then there's at least an equatable monthly level
Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
Development is almost always a product of activity, at least as I know it anyway. I think borrowing from that and then finding a way to somehow quantify their activity by taking into account their development and overall presence. I must admit that I do see why this is considered such a perplexing and difficult situation, because it is - now that I've thought about it. But really, we do need some kind of way to monitor and meter these guys. Edits, age, depth and quality of their wiki article(s), number of citizens (to be honest I think they exaggerate wildly, but that's just me) and their presence on micronational forums (our own and others if at all possible, such as MicroWiki forums and OAM). I think that no matter how we look at it, it is going to be difficult and labor intensive to measure these guys.
Click to register your team!
Tarjei Einhornsson - Grand Marshal of The Nordic Union
Zand Gozâr - Grand Vizier & Satrap of Kumarastan, Kingdom of Babkha
Tarjei Einhornsson - Grand Marshal of The Nordic Union
Zand Gozâr - Grand Vizier & Satrap of Kumarastan, Kingdom of Babkha
Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
I don't trust a system designed to gauge them by them. They all lie through their teeth to get higher numbers.
Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
I try not to be as mistrustful as that, but yes... ideally, we need our own standard to measure them by, and one whose measurement we can verify ourselves.
It's not just the measuring itself that might be hard, though, but the development of a fair standard itself. The thing with other types of micronations is that the pace at which they normally move may be different than ours, due to the medium they work in. In a wiki, for example, you can do a hundred minor edits in a day or write up an enormous and detailed article over the course of many days... should one kind count more than another? CAN they be easily counted differently?
It's not just the measuring itself that might be hard, though, but the development of a fair standard itself. The thing with other types of micronations is that the pace at which they normally move may be different than ours, due to the medium they work in. In a wiki, for example, you can do a hundred minor edits in a day or write up an enormous and detailed article over the course of many days... should one kind count more than another? CAN they be easily counted differently?
By the hand of
Shyriath Bukolos, aka Shyriath Farstrider, Harbinger of Cheese
He who has been
Shyriath Bukolos, aka Shyriath Farstrider, Harbinger of Cheese
He who has been
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Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
A lot of (ex-)nations here have done that over the times too, Harvey. I'm not sure citizen number are as important nowadays. You can have a two-man nation being developed consistently and actively deserving more land than a ten-man one that does things a lot "slower"
That's the problem, Shy. Unlike an easy-to-understand post-to-post standard (granted, posts can be all sorts of length/relevance though), wiki edits can be from miniscule spelling errors to a complete history of a nation, or even reverting/deleting another member's genuine contribution. I think it's that edits on an article can be a lot less constructive than a post on a forum. A standard must be found though, seeing as we're getting more and more wikinations claiming/expanding - some have even grown larger than a couple of forum-based nations now - and we do have to judge [as] fairly [as possible]
That's the problem, Shy. Unlike an easy-to-understand post-to-post standard (granted, posts can be all sorts of length/relevance though), wiki edits can be from miniscule spelling errors to a complete history of a nation, or even reverting/deleting another member's genuine contribution. I think it's that edits on an article can be a lot less constructive than a post on a forum. A standard must be found though, seeing as we're getting more and more wikinations claiming/expanding - some have even grown larger than a couple of forum-based nations now - and we do have to judge [as] fairly [as possible]
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Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
How about something along the lines of how Wikipedia measures it's articles?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... e_criteria
A Good Article is "professional" quality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... e_criteria
A Good Article is "professional" quality.
Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
My only concern is that even the AYE votes can be pretty ambiguous at times- it also helps newer members of the community to see what other micronations do to deserve expansions, in the MCS council's eyes. There is of course also the fact that some council members may be biased in favour of a claim due to political sympathies with the nation claiming, meaning that their AYE may not be based on actual heightened activity levels or cultural development.
Personally I would oblige every council member to at least write a very short explanation (i.e. 'lots of activity') when they vote AYE or NAY. This would also help if a nation wants to appeal a rejected claim, giving them actual evidence as to why their claim was rejected which they have every right to know.
Personally I would oblige every council member to at least write a very short explanation (i.e. 'lots of activity') when they vote AYE or NAY. This would also help if a nation wants to appeal a rejected claim, giving them actual evidence as to why their claim was rejected which they have every right to know.
Re: Council Members' Declared Interests
It's less mistrust and more observation and testimony. I spent about two weeks watching them fairly closely in mid Feb, trying to see if there was any meaningful way to encourage stronger relations (short answer: no, but it's happening slowly by itself anyway) and heard a little bit about these systems. They openly admit to being pretty cheesy with their numbers. Like, with population numbers, some count anyone that ever said they have remote interest in the nation but have never done anything at all for it whatsoever, and other cut to the chase and just declare the entire population of a few square miles that they claim as all their citizens.Shyriath wrote:I try not to be as mistrustful as that, but yes... ideally, we need our own standard to measure them by, and one whose measurement we can verify ourselves.
And that's even without getting into the unquantifiable ones. The highest rank in the sphere of influence is "5: Micronation is widely known among micronationalists and outsiders alike. A threat would cause great fear among a micronation and its allies." but I don't think any of us have ever quaked in fear of, or indeed even heard of, any of them (with the exception of A1 and Fish's very effective advertisement campaign), and yet some claim this category. Says who? Well, says they. Sure not says us.
Or, heck, other weird stuff. The highest ranking on a website activity list is "5. One forum post or comment every 36 hours." ... whereas we have periods where one post happening every 36 minutes is a slow day. Totally different cultures.
I could go on and on. And maybe I will at some point - there's a lot of potential lulz here. Still, I think the point has been made that these standards are totally incompatible with our vision of what activity for purposes of MCS membership means. Really, I could have just quoted "A specialty of this classification is that it automatically classifies all online micronations as "0"." and been done with it. When on Micras, do as the Micrans do.