Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
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Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
Okay so I've recently been thinking about this due to Alexandria's absence from Micras. We've had a history on Micras of some nations that leave being annexed or occupied by a new nation (ie Mercury with North Antarctica, Neo Patrova by Hamland etc). Now, Edgaard wrote on his open letter to the community that he didn't want Alexandria to just become part of another nation, hoping that the land would be claimed by new nations with new cultures. Also, I feel that although we don't copyright nations, I do think ethically that passing someone else's project off as your own just because they don't do it anymore is a bit unethical and to be honest I wouldn't want that to be the case should Senya ever leave Micras.
So I wanted to get people's opinions on this matter, primarily because I would personally be in favour of creating a new rule that would bar nations from infringing on the "copyright" of other nations (ie cities, flags, administrative regions etc) without people giving explicit permission, perhaps submitting evidence to the MCS. What do people make of these proposals?
So I wanted to get people's opinions on this matter, primarily because I would personally be in favour of creating a new rule that would bar nations from infringing on the "copyright" of other nations (ie cities, flags, administrative regions etc) without people giving explicit permission, perhaps submitting evidence to the MCS. What do people make of these proposals?
Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
I agree in principle, although the immediate question would be: with whom does copyright reside? Titular head of state? Webspace owner? MCS claim submitter? Equally shared by content creators? Unequally shared by content creators according to their output? Take, for instance, the current Shirerithian flag which was assembled by about half a dozen people with varying levels of input. If Shireroth were to fall and someone were to appropriate its symbology in a cheesy reboot, whose objection to such a thing would be considered legitimate? Whose woudn't?
All of these things are doubtless addressed by real-world legal precedent, but would the MCS wish to emulate that or adapt its own policies? If the former, which jurisdiction?
I don't pretend to have any answers... I'm just saying it's quite a can of worms to open.
All of these things are doubtless addressed by real-world legal precedent, but would the MCS wish to emulate that or adapt its own policies? If the former, which jurisdiction?
I don't pretend to have any answers... I'm just saying it's quite a can of worms to open.
Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
Thing is with micronations, the content creators don't actually die. They might leave the hobby for a bit and come back but it should always be assumed that there's at least a chance they'll return. I think, for this reason, the MSC will either have to make its own policy on the matter or (my preference) we do it case by case if it comes up as a big enough issue. Unless there's legal precedent for a dead artist coming back to life and asking if he can have some of his stuff back.
Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
I think this needs to be a case-by-case basis, and the basic policy here should be those passing others' work as their own should have their claims rejected. Cases like Alexandria, where the founder dissolved the country and made his wishes known, should be a slam dunk, simply abide by the wishes of the founder and proceed accordingly. Other cases should be dealt with in a manner that can be, whenever possible, consistently applied to similar cases to ensure fairness.
EDGARD
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Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
There is precedent for what Edgar's says. There was a similar request from ACII when's Gotzborg went on hiatus in 2007. That request was honoured (by the GSO mind you as Gotzborg had left its original MCS territory before then). That being said, the unique fact of that situation was that the GSO adopted an exact copy of the Gotzborg national map created by ACII years before as that micronation's representation on Geiss. As such, the Gotzborg Gross territory was a sort of licence-limited reproduction.
Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
Accepting and admitting Yastreb's points about how complicated this would be, I'd prefer Senya's proposed system to be inverted - not a blanket ban, but an ability for the MCS Council to reject claims or mods on the basis that a recognised rights-holder in relation to a former nation has asserted their social rights over a given project. I think the blanket ban is too harsh because it doesn't allow an easy flow of ideas and genuine geosimulation, where I think most of us are in fact happy and flattered if someone does something with our work. The USSC wasn't even my nation originally, but I did take it over, and was flattered when it provided some inspiration for Neo Patrova. Also, I've used Matbaic culture in Mar Sara in both Antica and Shireroth as they took (back) the north half of the island - and I consider that respectful, in that I haven't actually re-established a Matbaa-clone micronation.
There's another alternative... the Apollo Foundation still sort of exists and could be revitalised. The idea would be to have a trust or foundation which protects the names and cultures of past nations, as well as preserving their memory.
There's another alternative... the Apollo Foundation still sort of exists and could be revitalised. The idea would be to have a trust or foundation which protects the names and cultures of past nations, as well as preserving their memory.
Formerly His Imperial Niftiness Yardistanislaus du Grifos, former Kaiser of Shireroth
Now just Vilhelm Benkern, Count of Mar Sara
Suzerain of Hawshire // Peil̊åkti an Ixraǔtn | Protector of the Safir // Xonuti Shawa 'allumi Sanilla'i'i | King of the Free State of Sanilla
Now just Vilhelm Benkern, Count of Mar Sara
Suzerain of Hawshire // Peil̊åkti an Ixraǔtn | Protector of the Safir // Xonuti Shawa 'allumi Sanilla'i'i | King of the Free State of Sanilla
Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
So with the MCS, we all submit ourselves to the regime of one world, and of course, the countries and cultures mapped will interact. So when one country disappears, then we can't simply just ignore that that country has ever existed. Having respectful use of that culture – within reason – is what we ought to do, not ban.
Because if blanket ban use of dead nations etc, then there is no point to interact. Why should I interact with a country if I fear they'll die soon, and any ripples from that will be banned from me?
I think that by submitting an MCS claim in the first place, you sort of agree that coutnries can interact with you and your history, even when your country leaves. Of course, we can't simply usurp it – unless we have a legitimate stake in it.
Look at Alexandria for example – there have been many people over the years contributing to Alexandria and made it what it is. Some people developed specific small areas of it. Blanket-banning them for continuing on their projects would be more unethical. It makes for several difficult points, similar to those Kras brought up. Who has the right to the creations? A creator, a developer, those being in part?
This is all very problematic, but over the years (since the MCS Delvenus times), we've used a respectful heritage way of old sites on the map and cultures and interactions, and to change that precedent now will only make interaction more difficult in the future.
Because if blanket ban use of dead nations etc, then there is no point to interact. Why should I interact with a country if I fear they'll die soon, and any ripples from that will be banned from me?
I think that by submitting an MCS claim in the first place, you sort of agree that coutnries can interact with you and your history, even when your country leaves. Of course, we can't simply usurp it – unless we have a legitimate stake in it.
Look at Alexandria for example – there have been many people over the years contributing to Alexandria and made it what it is. Some people developed specific small areas of it. Blanket-banning them for continuing on their projects would be more unethical. It makes for several difficult points, similar to those Kras brought up. Who has the right to the creations? A creator, a developer, those being in part?
This is all very problematic, but over the years (since the MCS Delvenus times), we've used a respectful heritage way of old sites on the map and cultures and interactions, and to change that precedent now will only make interaction more difficult in the future.
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Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
As you mentioned in the opening post, Mercury claimed North Antarctica, and we also claim a part of the old Nova England territory. We've always been clear that should those nations return and want that land back, it would be ceded to them. I don't really see anything wrong with this approach as it acknowledges that the original founders still exist.
Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
This is a very good thing to point out. While I think we can all appreciate trying to be proactive rather than reactive, this community is composed of respectful people. Sure now and then there are times when someone steps over the line but, if it's bad enough, they get called out on it. You'd need a coalition of unprecedented scale across at least the four or five huge Empires in our sector to really make a case for something as radical as outright banning the use of other cultures/stories/etc. and even then, it would only give rise to workarounds and loopholes. and if you ask me, that would be far worse than just agreeing to share your toys.
Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
Apologies for not responding to this thread sooner, I've been busy with the family.
I agree with those taking a case-by-case situation, but I do think we should clarify things.
If for instance a one-man nation (ie Senya) left Micras, I think it would be acceptable to reclaim the territory and use old city names. I don't think however that claiming "Senya" to be a territory or re-using old symbols (ie the flag/Coat of Arms) is acceptable, unless you reach out to the person who ran it and gain their permission.
With the more-than-one-man nations, I think that rules should be a little more lax, though I think that people don't really take into account that many multiple person nations here belong really just to one person. For example, Alexandria was shut down by Edgard alone, despite having many other active citizens.
I think if a nation leaves, especially if that nation's founder willingly expresses a desire for the nation not to carry on on Micras, the MCS should interpret that as strict law.
I agree with those taking a case-by-case situation, but I do think we should clarify things.
If for instance a one-man nation (ie Senya) left Micras, I think it would be acceptable to reclaim the territory and use old city names. I don't think however that claiming "Senya" to be a territory or re-using old symbols (ie the flag/Coat of Arms) is acceptable, unless you reach out to the person who ran it and gain their permission.
With the more-than-one-man nations, I think that rules should be a little more lax, though I think that people don't really take into account that many multiple person nations here belong really just to one person. For example, Alexandria was shut down by Edgard alone, despite having many other active citizens.
I think if a nation leaves, especially if that nation's founder willingly expresses a desire for the nation not to carry on on Micras, the MCS should interpret that as strict law.
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Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
Mercury claimed Nova England, using the old city names and flag, but we've always had the express condition that if they wanted the land back, it would be given to them, no questions asked. I think if the motives are right, there absolutely IS an excuse for doing such a thing.
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Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
Hear, hear, hear! That just sums it all up.Ric wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:11 pmSo with the MCS, we all submit ourselves to the regime of one world, and of course, the countries and cultures mapped will interact. So when one country disappears, then we can't simply just ignore that that country has ever existed. Having respectful use of that culture – within reason – is what we ought to do, not ban.
Because if blanket ban use of dead nations etc, then there is no point to interact. Why should I interact with a country if I fear they'll die soon, and any ripples from that will be banned from me?
I think that by submitting an MCS claim in the first place, you sort of agree that coutnries can interact with you and your history, even when your country leaves. Of course, we can't simply usurp it – unless we have a legitimate stake in it.
Look at Alexandria for example – there have been many people over the years contributing to Alexandria and made it what it is. Some people developed specific small areas of it. Blanket-banning them for continuing on their projects would be more unethical. It makes for several difficult points, similar to those Kras brought up. Who has the right to the creations? A creator, a developer, those being in part?
This is all very problematic, but over the years (since the MCS Delvenus times), we've used a respectful heritage way of old sites on the map and cultures and interactions, and to change that precedent now will only make interaction more difficult in the future.
Re: Deaths of micronations, copyright, and other cheery things
I'm not exactly sure Alexandria is a clear-cut example of that. Alexandria also had a Terms of Service and a Community Charter that was clear about those parameters. Caputia has a similar one at the moment if you want to look at them.
Shireroth would be a better example, where people have actually put a ton of effort and work into their little fiefs. Alexandria was 100% political and it was to the detriment of real cultural development in the provinces. And also, even if it were the case, then communication should be paramount and efforts to come to an arrangement within that community should be attempted.
But in the case of Alexandria, while it was sudden, the development of Alexandria did not achieve the levels of intricacy that Minarboria and Shireroth achieved. That was because it was all political rhetoric and campaign ads, nothing else. There's been no meaningful provincial level development in Alexandria since Jean Michel Leclerc developed Valenciennes, since Augusto Benavides put together Corcovado and brought in Rio Grande, since Cardinal de Beaufort created Ibelin, since Christoph Meidner was developing Galatia, etc etc. That was YEARS ago.
Shireroth would be a better example, where people have actually put a ton of effort and work into their little fiefs. Alexandria was 100% political and it was to the detriment of real cultural development in the provinces. And also, even if it were the case, then communication should be paramount and efforts to come to an arrangement within that community should be attempted.
But in the case of Alexandria, while it was sudden, the development of Alexandria did not achieve the levels of intricacy that Minarboria and Shireroth achieved. That was because it was all political rhetoric and campaign ads, nothing else. There's been no meaningful provincial level development in Alexandria since Jean Michel Leclerc developed Valenciennes, since Augusto Benavides put together Corcovado and brought in Rio Grande, since Cardinal de Beaufort created Ibelin, since Christoph Meidner was developing Galatia, etc etc. That was YEARS ago.
EDGARD
Central Committee of Edgards
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Central Committee of Edgards
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