Interlandian Side Orders of Battle

[Iron_Beetle]

1. First major group:
a) Soldiers:
200 commando (1000)
b) Escort:
5 combat cars of infantry (200)
5 combat helicopters (375)
c) Transport:
20 armored personnel carrier (300)
20 helicopters of general application (1200)

In total: 3075 points

2. Second major group:
a) Soldiers:
200 commando (1000)
b) Escort:
5 combat cars of infantry (200)
5 combat helicopters (375)
c) Transport:
20 armored personnel carrier (300)
20 helicopters of general application (1200)

In total: 3075 points

3. Support group:
a) Soldiers:
1000 paratroopers (3000)
b) Transport:
5 bombers (5000)
c) Escort:
10 combat helicopters (750)

In total: 8750 points

Every groups in total: 14900 points

Żelazny Żuk - Iron Beetle in English

[Guido Zambelis]

Care to expand on "remote controlled self-propelled bombs"?

[SaiKar]

1000 kamikaze beavers (2000 pkt)
1700 mixed standard infantry (ghouls and humans) (1700pkt)
200 super-mutants (heavy infantry) (1000pkt)

I am assuming the mixed standard infantry are just Anunia standard 1-point infantry, the super-mutants are Anunia standard 5-point Special forces, and the ... kamikazi beavers... are some sort of 2-point infantry that have a tendency to use suicide tactics.

[Behmanesh FarzAn]

B. Declarations of war must contain the fictional parameters of the war, such as what technology level is allowed, whether or not to allow magic, whether or not to allow nuclear weapons, and any modifications to standard Convention rules. They must also contain an end date. Where the parameters for the war are not defined, it is assumed that Nuclear Weapons, Chemical Weapons, Biological Weapons and Magic are banned, and that any technology used must be in use (or have been in use) in real world military operations, and sufficient data must be obtained about its specifications. Where magic is used, it will be fought under the NCM system. The assumed end date, if not defined, is one month from the commencement of fighting.

As the parameters for this war were not defined in any declaration, II.B of the Anunia convention implies into the agreement a term that technology is used in real-world operations. Neither ghouls, super-mutants nor magic exploding beavers have been. Nor for that matter has "experimental armour", by its very nature.

It is PHALANX's submission that these units should not be allowed.

Furthermore, Interland have not specified the technology used in much of their Orbats, opting for generic names. This is, we suggest, inimical to fair competition. Accordingly we request that Interland be made to specify what technology they are using.

[SaiKar]

20 helicopters of general application

You do not have to cost any vehicles that are purely for transportation. Since you have costed these helicopters, they will be assumed to have some actual fighting capability in addition to their transportation capacity.

As the parameters for this war were not defined in any declaration, II.B of the Anunia convention implies into the agreement a term that technology is used in real-world operations. Neither ghouls, super-mutants nor magic exploding beavers have been. Nor for that matter has "experimental armour", by its very nature.

The fact that you guys didn't bother to fill out the paperwork is no excuse to disallow units that are apparently inherent to a country's simulation. The ghouls are 1-point soldiers in terms of the simulation, that is all. They can't give you the black plague or eat your brains (well, any more than a normal person could, I suppose...) or anything, but if Interland wants to call them ghouls instead of soldiers, that's their right, as is with the other units.

Furthermore, Interland have not specified the technology used in much of their Orbats, opting for generic names. This is, we suggest, inimical to fair competition. Accordingly we request that Interland be made to specify what technology they are using.

If they use generic names with no explanations then by all capabilities they ARE standard units with no differences between them and standard units whatsover. As for the unusually costed stuff, well, I'm pretty tempted to just call them unusually expensive or inexpensive variants of whatever chassis is closest to their point cost and being done with it.

If you're worried about Interland pulling a "surprise capabilities" stunt later on the war, well, don't be. That's sort of the point of this paperwork BS step and also the point of having us judges. We won't allow anything that wasn't declared to happen.

[Malliki Tosha]

Isn't it better to handle this now? I don't want to spend every day looking through the Interlandian orders for discrepancies. I also have a feeling that the "super-heavy" tanks priced as ordinary MBTs are going to be better than MBTs. Why the name otherwise? It's up to the judges to make sure that all units are clearly defined beforehand, so I suggest that you do just that. If you don't, I know who to blame when we face 9-feet tall super-mutants with laser beams attached to their heads.

[Guido Zambelis]

Let's not get excited about this: the "mythical" units that Interland presented do have realistic properties attributed to them.

We're not going to ban them because they have been described in particular language - we have received confirmation of their actual properties and are happy with those. I do, however, suggest that the Interlandian side refrain from using the "mythical" terms to describe them, because they will be recognised and adjudicated simply as the realistic soldiers that they are.

With regards inadequate descriptions - the judges are acutely aware of the possibility of parties claiming additional properties after the war has started - and this will simply not be allowed. Everyone should be aware that anything not declared now will just be ignored if an attempt to declare it is made later on.

[Behmanesh FarzAn]

The fact that you guys didn't bother to fill out the paperwork is no excuse to disallow units that are apparently inherent to a country's simulation. The ghouls are 1-point soldiers in terms of the simulation, that is all. They can't give you the black plague or eat your brains (well, any more than a normal person could, I suppose...) or anything, but if Interland wants to call them ghouls instead of soldiers, that's their right, as is with the other units.

What paperwork we did or did not fill in is, with respect, irrelevant. The fact is that in the absence of any specific agreement, II.B prohibits untested technologies. Ghouls are not really the issue, as the other side have effectively waived any claim to designate them as anything other than standard line infantry. The problem is untested, unspecified technologies such as power armour and exoskeletons. There is too much uncertainty: we are getting superficial responses telling us to "just" treat x as if it were y, without the courtesy of telling us what precisely Y is, or how it operates.

I don't really mind the use of a Fallout or Wasteland setting at all. I am concerned that we have gone to a lot of effort organising and costing our forces, to be faced with an order of battle that is, even if not fantastical, at least so uncertain as to grant an unfair advantage. I want these things ironed out now because past experience is that if we don't all agree on capabilities now, this stands a good chance of descending into a capabilities-questioning derailing row later.

[SaiKar]

I know who to blame when we face 9-feet tall super-mutants with laser beams attached to their heads.

Perhaps you will encounter 9-feet tall super-mutants with laser beams attached to their heads. But they will be exactly the same as any other 5-point commando unit. I'm not going to neuter the flavor of units, merely make sure they are balanced.

There is too much uncertainty: we are getting superficial responses telling us to "just" treat x as if it were y, without the courtesy of telling us what precisely Y is, or how it operates.

I have already decared some "Y"s as exactly standard units, such as with the ghouls and mutants - you may reference the Convention for full capabilities of standard units. For the other unspecified units, if Interland does not declare them in more specific terms (and soon) then one of the judges, probably myself, will declare their capabilities as they relate to standard units for them. For example, the 3500 point "WSD Nukersky" is apparently a battleship. Battleships normally cost 5000 points. I might declare the Nukersky to be exactly the same as a standard battleship but have half the offensive capabilities. That's not a final ruling, but it's the sort of clarification I would impose of the two sides cannot come to an agreement themselves.

I am concerned that we have gone to a lot of effort organising and costing our forces, to be faced with an order of battle that is, even if not fantastical, at least so uncertain as to grant an unfair advantage. I want these things ironed out now because past experience is that if we don't all agree on capabilities now, this stands a good chance of descending into a capabilities-questioning derailing row later.

I agree, though it's a bit aggrivating that one side (ie you guys) is saying loudly "you can't have that!" and the other side (Interland) is saying "eh," or less, so it's left up to the judges to come up with solutions that let a nation use units that properly fit their theme while keeping them balanced. I sort of feel like this should be being ironed out between the two sides directly, but I suppose absolute power comes with absolute babysitting too.

[Behmanesh FarzAn]

For the other unspecified units, if Interland does not declare them in more specific terms (and soon) then one of the judges, probably myself, will declare their capabilities as they relate to standard units for them. For example, the 3500 point "WSD Nukersky" is apparently a battleship. Battleships normally cost 5000 points. I might declare the Nukersky to be exactly the same as a standard battleship but have half the offensive capabilities. That's not a final ruling, but it's the sort of clarification I would impose of the two sides cannot come to an agreement themselves.

That is reassuring. Thank you.

[Iron_Beetle]

20 helicopters of general application

You do not have to cost any vehicles that are purely for transportation. Since you have costed these helicopters, they will be assumed to have some actual fighting capability in addition to their transportation capacity.

Ok, thank you for the information. However I'm sure they should have some abilities in fighting. In your opinion should I give some information about it? Maybe I should explain what type of helicopters I have.

[pawelabrams]

Żelazny, I didn't understand it clearly even in Polish - you will use something like this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_UH-1_Iroquois ?

The OrBat of Harold is a core of Winktown army, so the naming convention is different... I wouldn't use these cloned talking beavers as kamikaze as Talerz did, too.

Also, the OrBat of Harold was somewhat updated, the "experimental" units were abandoned and the Tankzilla and Nukersky were approximated to real (or planned) units, although I'd ask him to stick to the standard units...

SaiKar - your approximation of the beavers formation is nearly accurate, even if slightly disturbing. If these clones didn't have a common mind (Winktown specifics and Gofer's descriptions would be suitable here), we wouldn't use them in that quite cruel way

[Ardashir Khan]

I'm just disappointed at the lack of vertibirds.

[pawelabrams]

Nothing substantive to add?

[Ardashir Khan]

Next to kamikaze beavers substantive comments are redundant.