[JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
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[JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
1. Malliki Tosha
2. Pawel Abrams
3. At 1:44 am on Tuesday my 2nd Carrier Strike Group arrived at the eastern strait between Montauk and the Antican mainland. I immediately started air patrols, missions with dipping sonars from helicopters, I put my four destroyers and two submarines on high alert. In short, I covered my ass. At 9:11 pm the same day, Pawel Abrams reported two torpedoes fired at one of my submarines.
4. I contend the level of reality in the action made by the defendant. A massive carrier strike group, with subs, destroyers and ASW helicopters on mission, cannot be surprised by a single submarine. If the Interlandian submarine can see my submarine on its sonar, then my sub can see him too, especially since they are the same class. The explanation given by Pawel Abrams is insufficient in my mind. If the Interlandian submarine was there before my helicopters started their mission (something they in reality do pretty much all the time), they should have discovered the Interlandian submarine as soon as they started. I also wish to protest against the sentence "Fighters over the Montauk are on alert." To my knowledge, fighters from Montauk has never been ordered to patrol. Hence, all Montauk fighters should be on alert on the ground or on carriers, where I believe that Pawel's fighters should be.
5. The order launching torpedoes on my submarine should be vacated. The statement that fighters are on alert over Montauk should be vacated. They can be on alert on the ground.
2. Pawel Abrams
3. At 1:44 am on Tuesday my 2nd Carrier Strike Group arrived at the eastern strait between Montauk and the Antican mainland. I immediately started air patrols, missions with dipping sonars from helicopters, I put my four destroyers and two submarines on high alert. In short, I covered my ass. At 9:11 pm the same day, Pawel Abrams reported two torpedoes fired at one of my submarines.
4. I contend the level of reality in the action made by the defendant. A massive carrier strike group, with subs, destroyers and ASW helicopters on mission, cannot be surprised by a single submarine. If the Interlandian submarine can see my submarine on its sonar, then my sub can see him too, especially since they are the same class. The explanation given by Pawel Abrams is insufficient in my mind. If the Interlandian submarine was there before my helicopters started their mission (something they in reality do pretty much all the time), they should have discovered the Interlandian submarine as soon as they started. I also wish to protest against the sentence "Fighters over the Montauk are on alert." To my knowledge, fighters from Montauk has never been ordered to patrol. Hence, all Montauk fighters should be on alert on the ground or on carriers, where I believe that Pawel's fighters should be.
5. The order launching torpedoes on my submarine should be vacated. The statement that fighters are on alert over Montauk should be vacated. They can be on alert on the ground.
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
The way I see this is as follows:
1) Regardless of if you put your units on "high alert," they were doing their jobs automatically. You spent OrBat on units that have active search capabilities and you have the right for them to do their job without you having to micromanage every little aspect of their actions. However, the fact that you did state that they were actively searching beyond normal procedures adds to your claim of detection.
2) I'm a bit iffy on submarine detection vs stealth capabilities in real life. However, I received no private message from Pawel Abrams claiming he was running his submarine in ultra stealth mode waiting to ambush you. Not my fault I didn't receive one, and I explicitly warned everyone that this sort of thing could happen if PMs only get sent to one judge, so sucks to be you - whatever was in that PM didn't happen. So, because I received no PM, I have to assume the submarine is traveling at normal capacity - that is, trying to be stealthy, but probably not being successful against a well-prepared fleet such as Malliki's.
3) The claim that Malliki's fleet was "on sonar" is fair. The claim that Malliki's fleet was able to spot the submarine before it attacked is equally fair. Neither of these detection capabilities imply 100% chance for success, but they're reasonable enough to be plausible. Honestly, if the defenders are going to have the entire battle zone bathed in sea and air detection capabilities, I think it's only fair that attackers that specifically say they're searching can also detect enemies too.
My ruling is: the submarine was on patrol and received the enemy's position via sonar and decided to engage. The submarine's attack can still occur, but its position is fully compromised and any anti-submarine forces in the area can also attack almost simultaneously. Given the amount of force in the fleet, its first shot will likely be its last. Naturally, given the nature of submarine warfare, there is no guarantee that first shot it makes will even hit.
Incidentally, HAD I received a reasonable PM about this, I probably would have allowed the surprise to occur, even if the position was compromised afterward. But I did not, and I'm the first judge on the scene, so oh well. In war, communication errors are common and can cost people dearly.
1) Regardless of if you put your units on "high alert," they were doing their jobs automatically. You spent OrBat on units that have active search capabilities and you have the right for them to do their job without you having to micromanage every little aspect of their actions. However, the fact that you did state that they were actively searching beyond normal procedures adds to your claim of detection.
2) I'm a bit iffy on submarine detection vs stealth capabilities in real life. However, I received no private message from Pawel Abrams claiming he was running his submarine in ultra stealth mode waiting to ambush you. Not my fault I didn't receive one, and I explicitly warned everyone that this sort of thing could happen if PMs only get sent to one judge, so sucks to be you - whatever was in that PM didn't happen. So, because I received no PM, I have to assume the submarine is traveling at normal capacity - that is, trying to be stealthy, but probably not being successful against a well-prepared fleet such as Malliki's.
3) The claim that Malliki's fleet was "on sonar" is fair. The claim that Malliki's fleet was able to spot the submarine before it attacked is equally fair. Neither of these detection capabilities imply 100% chance for success, but they're reasonable enough to be plausible. Honestly, if the defenders are going to have the entire battle zone bathed in sea and air detection capabilities, I think it's only fair that attackers that specifically say they're searching can also detect enemies too.
My ruling is: the submarine was on patrol and received the enemy's position via sonar and decided to engage. The submarine's attack can still occur, but its position is fully compromised and any anti-submarine forces in the area can also attack almost simultaneously. Given the amount of force in the fleet, its first shot will likely be its last. Naturally, given the nature of submarine warfare, there is no guarantee that first shot it makes will even hit.
Incidentally, HAD I received a reasonable PM about this, I probably would have allowed the surprise to occur, even if the position was compromised afterward. But I did not, and I'm the first judge on the scene, so oh well. In war, communication errors are common and can cost people dearly.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
What about the thing I wrote about fighters over Montauk? Also, is this the official judgment, or should I wait for the other judges to weigh in?
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
I do not think it is reasonable to inform you where the enemy fighters are. There may be private messages you do not know about. It's not the job of the judges to tell you these sorts of things, but to settle disputes if and when they occur. I would like to point out, however, that according to the charter "Planes move relatively instantaneously but cannot move far from a base - either a friendly city or a carrier." If they are buzzing around up there or if they are on the tarmacs or carriers and fueled up makes very little practical difference in their ability to launch in time to act, including intercepting enemy attacks.
Regarding other judges, hell if I know how we handle this sort of thing. Well, gotta keep the war moving. Consider the judgement official and if we judges want to work out some other system for consent than we can apply it to later disputes.
Regarding other judges, hell if I know how we handle this sort of thing. Well, gotta keep the war moving. Consider the judgement official and if we judges want to work out some other system for consent than we can apply it to later disputes.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
But fighters over Montauk would show up on ANTILORDS. It's not realistic to treat Montauk island as a black hole in that radar coverage.
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
What the hell is ANTILORDS? You guys just started referencing it in the battleground as if the rest of us know what you're talking about. I did a search for "ANTILORDS" on this entire forum and the first reference to it is on Sep 26, after the war began. If it's some sort of existing national defense system of long-range radar or space tracking or something, it was not declared in the Existing National Defences section of Antican's National Form. As far as I'm concerned, at this point, it doesn't exist. You guys can use it as some sort of communcation hub if you want, but it doesn't have any detection powers.
Anyway, I'm at work and really shouldn't be doing this sort of thing. If any of the other judges want to hop in here, that'd be awesome.
Anyway, I'm at work and really shouldn't be doing this sort of thing. If any of the other judges want to hop in here, that'd be awesome.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
Harvey, chill. ANTILORDS is the Antican Long Range Detection System, and it was included in the existing national defense structure (Antican RDF Radar Network Coverage).
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
- pawelabrams
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
I was aware that the first attack might be the last one. I guess the captain would also know that and would order to fire everything they've got at the fleet. And if he remained calm, he would probably leave two or three alone in case they managed to survive the first wave of that thick attack.My ruling is: the submarine was on patrol and received the enemy's position via sonar and decided to engage. The submarine's attack can still occur, but its position is fully compromised and any anti-submarine forces in the area can also attack almost simultaneously. Given the amount of force in the fleet, its first shot will likely be its last. Naturally, given the nature of submarine warfare, there is no guarantee that first shot it makes will even hit.
Incidentally, HAD I received a reasonable PM about this, I probably would have allowed the surprise to occur, even if the position was compromised afterward. But I did not, and I'm the first judge on the scene, so oh well. In war, communication errors are common and can cost people dearly.
Yeah, and the aircraft carrier and your fighters would show up on the island's radars... The radar coverage and information gathered from them are a weak side of the Convention.But fighters over Montauk would show up on ANTILORDS. It's not realistic to treat Montauk island as a black hole in that radar coverage.
Oh, yeah, and "Their opponent must be given a chance to respond."
Pavel' Abramovic:, the President of Interland
IRL just a random guy from Poland. Still learning English.
IRL just a random guy from Poland. Still learning English.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
Well, you have a "Port radar" on Montauk. I guess it's used for the port on the northern shore of the island. Also, you have been given time to respond, so I don't know what you mean by that reply. I said that you're bombarded, not what happened to the sub.
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
- pawelabrams
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
That was a quote from the "Judging section": SaiKar made his ruling oficial without even getting me to say anything.
Pavel' Abramovic:, the President of Interland
IRL just a random guy from Poland. Still learning English.
IRL just a random guy from Poland. Still learning English.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
Ah okay. Yeah, I agree on that one.
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
- Guido Zambelis
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
You should have had the chance to respond, but I can't see us coming to a different conclusion anyway. I fully concur with and endorse Harvey's judgement.
- Guido Zambelis
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
Also I'm splitting out the negated posts now.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. Pawel Abrams; Eastern Strait
I also have mild objections about this post by Pawel. In my opinion, when an attack is launched at you, the first thing you should do is call the damages it does. Instead, he attacks my sub again, and then makes vague remarks about three torpedos. I launched ten plus one missile at a submarine in sonar range. He launches a total of eight torpedos from the same sub within what I can only consider to be seconds. The Los Angeles class has four torpedo tubes.
Oh, and it also looks like he's amending his first attack after the fact. "4 more torpedoes were launched, probably as the captain realised that his boat had just attacked the enemy's ship." This apparently happens before my entire Strike Group bombards the Interlandian sub after he's fired his first two.
Oh, and it also looks like he's amending his first attack after the fact. "4 more torpedoes were launched, probably as the captain realised that his boat had just attacked the enemy's ship." This apparently happens before my entire Strike Group bombards the Interlandian sub after he's fired his first two.
Last edited by Malliki Tosha on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
- Guido Zambelis
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