[JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk airsp.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
What do you mean by "flying CAPs in pairs"?Lord_Montague wrote:I won't give a dissenting opinion if I'm honest.
CAPs do serve their purpose in allowing for a plane to be up and ready with a slight tactical advantage. We're not totally points based on this and I do appreciate seeing tactical finesse.
However in this case, it seems reasonable after reviewing the posts that Malliki only had 2 CAPs and its standard procedure across air forces to fly CAPs in pairs so as far I know.
And to be fair, having those B52s of Ryan's escape completely undamaged is not fair. Some damage, it doesn't have to be a loss of one but perhaps damaged engines, would be fair.
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
The post you invited the Interlandians to edit has not been edited yet, so I don't quite know what to reply to. Can we 24-hour-rule it?Guido Zambelis wrote:Provisional judgement, I would welcome the opinions of other judges:
Ryan declared that he was flying at 30,000 in a secret move made in conjunction with the post before the public attack post.(He also stated the following:)The Wing will fly at an altitude of 30,000 feet in order to remain above the 26,500 ft ceiling of the AA defenses on Montauk. Each bomber can carry 157 tons of bombs per run and, at that rate, can drop 20 kilos per square kilometer.Fighters were deployed on the 27th (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58040#p58040) and were mentioned again on the 28th (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58051#p58051). However, the fact that the Antican side was seemingly unaware of this doesn't mean that their RADAR didn't detect them - that would be simply illogical. It was foolish of the Interlandian side to pretend that the fighters were somehow undetected when the capabilities of the Antican RADAR systems have been publicly stated. Also, only 4 fighters are stealth, the rest are not.The ten (10) attack helicopters of the 1st Air Attack Wing, along with all elements of the 2nd Air Attack Wing, will remain on active standby to intercept any fighters that may be launched in an effort to intercept our bombers.
I therefore invite the Interlandian side to edit this post (http://micras.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58136#p58136) to reflect a less successful attack by their fighters and include any counter-attack that may have been made by the helicopters that were stated in the secret move mentioned above.
(Btw, you can get the individual URLs of each post by clicking this tiny icon just under the title: http://micras.org/forum/styles/xabbblue ... target.gif)
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
I edited my post (only summary) - included the Malliki fighters and more losses on our side. Only thing I hesitated to include was these helicopters thing. Maximum altitude for Apache is 21k feets (with minimum load and I think they must be loaded with fuel ammo when going to fight). So if they are about to intervene, they efficiency in airfight far over them would be minimal - and they would be surely in range of our air defence. But - enemy declared they use, and the judge confirmed this... I think their losses should be high.I therefore invite the Interlandian side to edit this post (viewtopic.php?p=58136#p58136) to reflect a less successful attack by their fighters and include any counter-attack that may have been made by the helicopters that were stated in the secret move mentioned above.
(-) mjr Timoteos Stefanosigos
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
They were put on standby. Only Ryan should be able to deploy them, not you or the judges.
Malliki Tosha
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
Malliki, I don't know what's happening. My ruling appears to have been disregarded - I don't know whether the others are happy with it or not.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
If they were in the immediate area then yes, they'll have high damages if they were targetted (the apaches).
In pairs means 2 fighters.
In pairs means 2 fighters.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
He ordered them to standby and intercept any fighters that may be launched in an effort to intercept his bombers. So, I assume if our fighters intervened, these helicopters also were there. It cannot be that you declared attack, and, after my response, you declare that others units take part in fight, not that declared in first place. Ryan PMed judges about the use of helicopters and 2nd air wing if our fighters intervene, so, because they intervened, the helicopters and 2nd wing were there also.They were put on standby. Only Ryan should be able to deploy them, not you or the judges.
You pretend that I must describe the defence without knowing what forces are fighting against me. Ryan publicly declared 1st Air Attack Wing bombarding mission. Then, after that, I was judically called to re-describe it, including other units (the helicopters, 2nd Air Attack Wing) - but I couldn't know about them in first place. So could someone tell me, what am I done wrong? I think, it's Ryan who should, after my post, inform about the use of other units, and then I should add informations about the more losses/other responses, not that I should get to know about them from judgment.
I think, there should be rule, that secret moves should be not only declared to judges, but actually declared in battlegrounds when they take place. Of course I don't want to fight over this case any longer, but using this situation as example, it should be as I described before - Ryan should after my post inform about this move of other unit, stating that jugdes were informed about this.
(-) mjr Timoteos Stefanosigos
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
Its good practice to declare the existence of secret moves in a post summary.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
I need a final ruling on this. Is Guido's ruling okay, or Harvey's, or what?
Malliki Tosha
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
Ryan did declare the secret move.
In past conflicts, secret moves have been publicly posted. I would have no considerable objections to this, so long as both sides were happy?
In past conflicts, secret moves have been publicly posted. I would have no considerable objections to this, so long as both sides were happy?
Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
Ryan did declare the helos were on standby to intercept fighters. But it's a confusing situation. Ryan never actually activated the helecopters. PMs for "what if" scenarios show that your forces were ready for a certain action, but they don't make the action happen automatically - the player still has to go "aha!" and react. Ryan should have posted something like "I sent a PM to the judges saying my helcopters were on standby. My forces detect the Interland launch and my helecopters move to incercept." or something along those lines, but he never did. I can only assume he changed his mind about wanting to deploy them. I agree with Malliki that the helecopters cannot be automatically assumed to be there if Ryan never said they were. So they should be excluded from this particular engagement.
In other news, is it actually militarily realistic for helecopters to intercept fighters in aerial combat and protect bombers? I would imagine the fighters would totally destroy the helecopters without breaking a sweat.
In other news, is it actually militarily realistic for helecopters to intercept fighters in aerial combat and protect bombers? I would imagine the fighters would totally destroy the helecopters without breaking a sweat.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
I'm no expert in military issues, but I imagine that helicopters vs. fighters would be like trying to race a Lamborghini with a horse.
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
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- Lord_Montague
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
Yes, but I am of the opinion that the helicopters were present in the combat zone as Ryan had them on standby to intercept. Either they are there, and capable of inflicting casualities, or not there and incapable of inflicting casualities.
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Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
I would say that they are on standby, which to me means out of range but available. The call on whether or not they should engage should rest with Ryan, no one else and particularly not the opposition.
Malliki Tosha
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Owner, Newport City FC [ANT]
Owner, Mortis Mercatoria FC [IRS]
Re: [JP] Malliki Tosha vs. TimoteosStefanosigos; Montauk air
Well that's both Guide and Monty saying the choppers should be there, so I concede the issue. It would probably be a good idea to clarify officially in the convention if triggered conditions in secret moves happen automatically or not at some point in the future.