Page 1 of 2

Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:46 am
by Jack
Am I right in thinking that, given the fact that the Republic of Stars is no longer an active nation, this nation should be removed from the SCUE and its funds deleted?

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:41 pm
by NewZimiaGov
10. Should a signatory nation withdraw from this treaty, due to death or otherwise, all currency held in accounts registered in that nation shall be removed.
This is the only part of the treaty which references dead members in any way. Notice that the funds in the dead nation shall be "removed," not "deleted." The question which of course arises is, does the charter require that currency held by members be removed from the bank entirely, or simply from that nation? Since the last word of the sentence is simply "removed," it isn't clear at all. That said, I interpret the charter in such a way which allows for funds held by dead nations to be protected from total removal from the bank via annexation by other countries. There is a precedent for this, regarding Haifa, where Haifa's various territories and funds were openly divided amongst Hamland, Mercury, and St. Andre, according to official treaties. Stars' funds, I think, can be handled in the same way, as as can the funds of other future dead nations.

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:30 pm
by Jack
The only problem is of course that the autorities of the RoS didn't authorize this transfer, but that it was a unilateral decision by... surprise, surprise... the SCUE administrator himself. Might want to avoid looking like a total crook here.

Also, I think 'removal' clearly implies actual removal from the SCUE.

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:42 pm
by NewZimiaGov
Well, every nation has an equal right to take advantage of the interpretation. It's not like such an interpretation only applies to my countries. And it isn't like Stars didn't have ample time to respond. And actually, they did respond, with this message:
tobeyrowe wrote:Hi, I have decided to just dissolve the Republic of Stars on Micra's and I was wondering if I could become a citizen of Hamland and also I will sell my stocks to you if you still want them and I will just make an account on the SCUE bank as a citizen of Hamland and transfer those funds to the new account.
This message, which was sent on 2/21, is as clear cut of an affirmation and approval of our annexation as Stars is likely to provide, considering that tobey hasn't been around since sending the message. They didn't fail to agree, or explicitly disagree with anything Hamland has done. In fact, they had an expressed intent to transfer their funds to an account in Hamland anyway. So, I'm not sure what your beef is. If you can prove that Hamland's annexation of Stars is in any way a violation of the charter, then feel free.

The word "removed" is obviously up for interpretation. If it was clearly removal from the bank, then it would say so. Since it doesn't say that, and it simply says "removed," there is room for interpretation

Edit: Here's a screencap of the PM, in case anyone doubts the validity of the quote posted above.
http://i.imgur.com/6Fm7EXW.png

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:53 pm
by Jack
There is some discrepancy between this pm and what actually happened.

1. Tobey didn't transfer the money himself, it was done by Duke in his role as admin.
2. Tobey didn't become citizen of Hamland (afaik)
3. Hamland unilaterally claims Stars, without a treaty or anything.
4. Your point that tobey's post doesn't "explicitly disagree" with the actions of Hamland isn't an argument. I would say that his post would have to explicitly agree to be relevant.
5. Tobey had the intention to become a Hammish citizen and bring his money with him, which is something entirely different from what happened (Hamland seeing that tobey and Stars were inactive, claiming the land and transferring all assets.)

This would be a seriously problematic affair, if you hadn't been admin of the SCUE yourself, I see some conflict of interest here.

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:28 pm
by NewZimiaGov
1. No money has been transferred from any Stars accounts to any Hammish accounts. I had moved Stars accounts to Hamland, but I've undone that for now in order to await input from more members of the community. That said, Stars still has all of the money it was allocated. No money was transferred from Stars to Hamland, as you'll be able to see if you check the record.
2. This is true.
3. False. Stars was involved in discussions at every step of the way, and they were asked to provide their own input and feedback, or to express any objections to any of Hamland's proposals.
4. Fine.
5. Like I said, I had moved Stars accounts to Hamland as per our approval for annexation, but I've undone that for the time being in hopes that more members of the community come forward with their views on this issue. I'd be happy to hear what other members think about the option to allow living members to annex dead SCUE accounts.

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:33 pm
by Malliki
Wow, talk about overreaching. The only interpretation that makes any kind of sense is that the removed funds shall be held by the bank, and their distribution be decided by the members. Having an activist administrator isn't exactly beneficial to this organisation.

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:45 pm
by NewZimiaGov
While I basically repect your opinion, I would much rather receive input from members who actually care about actually using the bank.

Edit: obstructionism is far worse for the welfare of the bank than any degree of administrative activism. So far Maliki, you are strictly being obstructionist. You have expressed no actual rational argument for why hamland should not proceed with this annexation. If it violates the charter, how and where does it do so?

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:49 am
by NewZimiaGov
Apologies for the double post, but I've been thinking a lot about this, and I think I've come to a fair compromise.

Instead of outright laying claims to Stars' accounts, I would like to suggest that Hamland be allowed temporary access to Stars' accounts, in order oversee the sale of the shares which Stars owns on the HAM50, on the basis that no SCUE currency will be transferred from Stars to Hamland, and that Stars will be removed from the bank once Hamland has completed efforts to sell off all of Stars investments on the HAM50. Fundamentally, the outright removal of Stars poses an undeniable risk to Hamland's economy, insofar as Stars owns large amounts of shares in several of Hamland's industries, and their removal from the bank would result in significant decreases to the value of those industries. Hamland would like to mitigate that risk by being allowed to oversee the proper and responsible sale of all of Stars' investments on the HAM50. Again, once it's said and done, Stars will be removed from the bank, and no currency would be transferred between Hamland and Stars.

If Hamland is granted this, I will leave the post of SCUE administrator. I imagine that this will come as a really nice surprise to a lot of you, but the fact is that I mostly only care about Hamland and her allies, and Passio-Corum. I frankly no longer give much of a shit if you trade with each other, though in an ideal world, you all would take more of an interest.

Take it as you want.

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:56 am
by Andreas the Wise
Duke Sinclair wrote:
10. Should a signatory nation withdraw from this treaty, due to death or otherwise, all currency held in accounts registered in that nation shall be removed.
To clarify the original intention, it was that if a nation dies, all accounts within them are deleted (well, 'deleted', where all their funds are removed and the accounts themselves are marked as inactive and so don't show up to non-admin users, actually deleting accounts plays havoc with the logs), and so any funds within those accounts are removed, to roughly proxy the loss of active micronationalists. Of course any accounts within that nation of people who are still active they were welcome to request to be moved to another country they're citizens of, with funds intact, which, for example, is what happened to a lot of the Anticans when Antica went bust. But anyone who's dead as a micronationalist in a dead country, the intention was to just move their currency out of circulation and 'delete' their account.

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:31 am
by Malliki
Duke Sinclair wrote:While I basically repect your opinion, I would much rather receive input from members who actually care about actually using the bank.

Edit: obstructionism is far worse for the welfare of the bank than any degree of administrative activism. So far Maliki, you are strictly being obstructionist. You have expressed no actual rational argument for why hamland should not proceed with this annexation. If it violates the charter, how and where does it do so?
You have provided no rational argument to how this annexation is even legal. This is all about you personally trying to empty the accounts of a dead nation. As Andreas stated, the original intent was for the funds in dead nations to be deleted. Are you going to honor that original intent, or just reinterpret it to suit your personal agenda?

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:36 pm
by Ric
Shireroth objects in the strongest terms possible against the proposed Hammish takeover of Stars money (which should by the treaty be removed from the bank).

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:05 pm
by NewZimiaGov
Malliki wrote:You have provided no rational argument to how this annexation is even legal. This is all about you personally trying to empty the accounts of a dead nation. As Andreas stated, the original intent was for the funds in dead nations to be deleted. Are you going to honor that original intent, or just reinterpret it to suit your personal agenda?
For fucks' sake. Obviously, right? I mean
Duke Sinclair wrote:Apologies for the double post, but I've been thinking a lot about this, and I think I've come to a fair compromise.

Instead of outright laying claims to Stars' accounts, I would like to suggest that Hamland be allowed temporary access to Stars' accounts, in order oversee the sale of the shares which Stars owns on the HAM50, on the basis that no SCUE currency will be transferred from Stars to Hamland, and that Stars will be removed from the bank once Hamland has completed efforts to sell off all of Stars investments on the HAM50. Fundamentally, the outright removal of Stars poses an undeniable risk to Hamland's economy, insofar as Stars owns large amounts of shares in several of Hamland's industries, and their removal from the bank would result in significant decreases to the value of those industries. Hamland would like to mitigate that risk by being allowed to oversee the proper and responsible sale of all of Stars' investments on the HAM50. Again, once it's said and done, Stars will be removed from the bank, and no currency would be transferred between Hamland and Stars.

If Hamland is granted this, I will leave the post of SCUE administrator. I imagine that this will come as a really nice surprise to a lot of you, but the fact is that I mostly only care about Hamland and her allies, and Passio-Corum. I frankly no longer give much of a shit if you trade with each other, though in an ideal world, you all would take more of an interest.

Take it as you want.

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:55 pm
by Benkern
I back my original comments in this thread in Bastion that a micronationalist with too strong active participation in political matters is unsuitable for the role of SCUE admin, this case demonstrates that really clearly.

Re: Question regarding the Republic of Stars

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:44 pm
by Malliki
Duke Sinclair wrote:If Hamland is granted this, I will leave the post of SCUE administrator. I imagine that this will come as a really nice surprise to a lot of you, but the fact is that I mostly only care about Hamland and her allies, and Passio-Corum. I frankly no longer give much of a shit if you trade with each other, though in an ideal world, you all would take more of an interest.

Take it as you want.
Jesus, butthurt much?