Reforming the SCUE
Re: Reforming the SCUE
*sigh*
I'm only snippy because of your crybaby post. I think that an economy where you make transactions between real people is pretty much pointless. I have been thinking about creating a simulated economy, we'll see what happens.
I'm only snippy because of your crybaby post. I think that an economy where you make transactions between real people is pretty much pointless. I have been thinking about creating a simulated economy, we'll see what happens.
-
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:39 am
Re: Reforming the SCUE
Oh good, so you didn't actually bother checking. If you had, you'd see that the primary industry involves the production of high quality military technology, ie real things for sale. Crybaby post? Please. I think you're just naturally snippy, no matter what...Malliki wrote:Sorry, I meant an economy. I can also post charts over various simulated goods and other statistics.
[Edit: I keep statistical records relating to my economy, which allow me to assess real trends in order to make policy decisions. In other words, I've developed an economic system that not only fosters high activity, but which also has a direct bearing on politics and decision making within the nation. Don't like it? Sue me. Or show me a better system, which can accomplish the same desirable ends. New Zimia is the only nation, right now, where this level of economic integration is remotely possible. That said, statistics and record keeping are a byproduct of the economic activity and industry itself. They are not the focus.]
Lewis, the system I designed has no limit on the number of people who can participate. The key point is that individuals act as investors on behalf of simulated groups of citizens, rather than on their own behalf. It's up to people to choose what simulated group they want to represent, and how they want to represent them. Really, the possibilities are unlimited. I just established a Merchant Marine force, for instance, which purchases arms on behalf of my nations sailors and merchants. The Merchant Marines invests in the Shirley Stock Fund in order to acquire a wide range of guns and ammunition, which they then theoretically distribute to the people it represents.
[Edit: When New Zimia expands, it's generally because new there is a new investor representing a new group of simulated people. Right now, I operate all of the investors, because I'm the only one involved in the country. If others became involved, they could operate their own investors, and determine their own policies, as investors. Hamland is actually already an investor, by the way. You already have access to a lot of money within the New Zimian economy. It's just up to you to use it.]
That said, I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I just wanted to point out that for those who care enough to try, economics are alive and well.
""YJD: Een Recwar is prima zolang Bijaro niet deelneemt."
Re: Reforming the SCUE
Can we avoid this sort of comment? This thread is to gauge where different nations are regarding their views on economics so that we have an idea of how to move forward.I'm only snippy because of your crybaby post.
I actually did read quite a lot on your blog, then you showed me where the forum is but I couldn't find the explicit model of what you do, so I asked you for it. Again, let's not use this as an opportunity to vent frustration but to actually discuss the model. I've not criticised your new model in any way and have shown an interest in it. Let's all remain civil. Thanks for your later explanation, it's really informative.Oh good, so you didn't actually bother checking. If you had, you'd see that the primary industry involves the production of high quality military technology, ie real things for sale.
The model sounds interesting, and might appeal to those who want to simulate an economy in that way. Is your model cumbersome in any way and does it carry rewards that are enough to maintain interest?
-
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:39 am
Re: Reforming the SCUE
The system became much less cumbersome once it was removed from SCUE. The problem, while it was on SCUE, was that there were a lot of accounts that had to be managed individually, which was pretty time consuming and tedious once things got too big (once I was managing 20+ accounts.) Now that it doesn't use SCUE, the system is a lot more straightforward, insofar as multiple accounts can be managed at the same time. See this page, for example. Before the move away from SCUE, all of those transactions would have needed to be done one by one, in a process that might take the afternoon, but now the entire process is condensed into 10 minutes, at most. The process is now much more streamlined, and accessible.
I will say that I can see how all of the spreadsheets could deter potential users. That said, that work is the responsibility of the bank itself, and not of individual investors. So, investors need not feel overwhelmed by that stuff. The charts merely exist to guide national policy.
In my opinion, one of the biggest advantages of the system is the high degree of integration between governance and economics. In the system I've developed, the economy plays a central role in almost all government decisions, and the economy is directly impacted by those decisions. In order to accomplish a new political goal - the establishment of the Merchant Marines for example - the government must make changes to the economy by altering its existing investments. For the most part, things don't happen within government, that don't also directly impact the economy, and vice versa. Changes to government policy directly impact the size and scope of the economy, and changes within the economy impact the government's future policies. As I said earlier, as I understand it, this type/degree of political-economic integration is not currently possible anywhere else. Whereas most nations view economics as an annoying step-brother to government, in New Zimia, they are more like husband and wife. Personally, I think it's a great basis for any nation who wants a strong economic system, that also has relevance to governance.
Edit: The comment you quoted wasn't directed at you, by the way. It was directed at Maliki.
I will say that I can see how all of the spreadsheets could deter potential users. That said, that work is the responsibility of the bank itself, and not of individual investors. So, investors need not feel overwhelmed by that stuff. The charts merely exist to guide national policy.
In my opinion, one of the biggest advantages of the system is the high degree of integration between governance and economics. In the system I've developed, the economy plays a central role in almost all government decisions, and the economy is directly impacted by those decisions. In order to accomplish a new political goal - the establishment of the Merchant Marines for example - the government must make changes to the economy by altering its existing investments. For the most part, things don't happen within government, that don't also directly impact the economy, and vice versa. Changes to government policy directly impact the size and scope of the economy, and changes within the economy impact the government's future policies. As I said earlier, as I understand it, this type/degree of political-economic integration is not currently possible anywhere else. Whereas most nations view economics as an annoying step-brother to government, in New Zimia, they are more like husband and wife. Personally, I think it's a great basis for any nation who wants a strong economic system, that also has relevance to governance.
Edit: The comment you quoted wasn't directed at you, by the way. It was directed at Maliki.
""YJD: Een Recwar is prima zolang Bijaro niet deelneemt."
Re: Reforming the SCUE
Fair enough, sounds interesting. I'm keen on hearing what other states have in line. A lot of people are keen on abandoning the SCUE, but alternatives seem few and far between.
I can confirm, as Benkern foresaw in Shireroth, that there is a country toying with PHPBank
And I thought so. But I would like this to be a thread about our feelings towards different economic models, rather than our feelings towards each other.
I can confirm, as Benkern foresaw in Shireroth, that there is a country toying with PHPBank
And I thought so. But I would like this to be a thread about our feelings towards different economic models, rather than our feelings towards each other.
Re: Reforming the SCUE
I also think it sounds interesting tbh, at least a lot more interesting than SCUE, which is basically a bank and nothing else.
-
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:39 am
Re: Reforming the SCUE
Well, I'm glad to hear that. The fact is, I didn't even know that I was interested in economics until I started this work. If nothing else, I hope that it somehow helps to kindle a similar interest in other people.
""YJD: Een Recwar is prima zolang Bijaro niet deelneemt."
-
- Posts: 5024
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:34 pm
- Location: Novatainia
- Contact:
Re: Reforming the SCUE
Allow an old codger to add my two cents.
First, if it's helpful, back when we were trying to get a micronational journal working, I wrote up (as best I could remember/reference) a history of major micronational economic models I've seen and the problems they've encountered. It doesn't help so much with solutions, but should be of interest for people wanting to get a good grasp at what's been tried before. You can find it here (it's split into 8 parts for some reason, so you have to keep clicking through to read it all). It also discusses the difference between 'real'/OOC and 'simulated'/IC economies, which is probably of interest given the above discussion.
Second, given the trend of the SCUE in recent years (lots of people joining, few interested in actually doing anything with their money, and some profiting from the collapse of big nations like Antica as government funds were carved up), if there is interest in renewing micronational economies broader than a single nation, it might well be time to wind up the SCUE as it currently is and start a new economic agreement with new currency, but using the same bank infrastructure. As Liam said, it really is very helpful having the same currency (and for that matter, para-banking infrastructure like the SCX) across nations, because apart from a few economic nerds (guilty!) most people don't want to mess around with currency trading to be able to get anything done internationally. It's also a fair point that different nations want different things out of their economy - real vs simulated etc. The SCUE tried the umbrella church to include everyone; that hasn't worked. Putting a little more structure around what economy you're joining with the shared currency is probably helpful, even if that means you end up running several currencies in parallel (e.g. one for people who want complex simulations, one for a real economy based on transactions between actual micronationalists etc.).
Up to you guys though - I'm just one of those old people who checks in once every six months or so to moan about how it's not like the good old days, when micronational economies still didn't work but at least they pretended to work for a couple months at a time
Finally, on the topic of inflation in the stock market - I always knew this would happen, which is why I did it on its own separate currency (SCX credits) that was tied to the amount of actual SCUE currency available to be traded out. This meant that it could safely inflate there (which, I think, is what people expect stock exchanges to do over the long term) without screwing with the actual SCUE currency. Not sure I made this clear when people started using the SCX credits as separate currency, but it was always an intentional design feature when the SCX was first created. To be honest, I remain really impressed that people actually still use something I spent months coding back in the day.
First, if it's helpful, back when we were trying to get a micronational journal working, I wrote up (as best I could remember/reference) a history of major micronational economic models I've seen and the problems they've encountered. It doesn't help so much with solutions, but should be of interest for people wanting to get a good grasp at what's been tried before. You can find it here (it's split into 8 parts for some reason, so you have to keep clicking through to read it all). It also discusses the difference between 'real'/OOC and 'simulated'/IC economies, which is probably of interest given the above discussion.
Second, given the trend of the SCUE in recent years (lots of people joining, few interested in actually doing anything with their money, and some profiting from the collapse of big nations like Antica as government funds were carved up), if there is interest in renewing micronational economies broader than a single nation, it might well be time to wind up the SCUE as it currently is and start a new economic agreement with new currency, but using the same bank infrastructure. As Liam said, it really is very helpful having the same currency (and for that matter, para-banking infrastructure like the SCX) across nations, because apart from a few economic nerds (guilty!) most people don't want to mess around with currency trading to be able to get anything done internationally. It's also a fair point that different nations want different things out of their economy - real vs simulated etc. The SCUE tried the umbrella church to include everyone; that hasn't worked. Putting a little more structure around what economy you're joining with the shared currency is probably helpful, even if that means you end up running several currencies in parallel (e.g. one for people who want complex simulations, one for a real economy based on transactions between actual micronationalists etc.).
Up to you guys though - I'm just one of those old people who checks in once every six months or so to moan about how it's not like the good old days, when micronational economies still didn't work but at least they pretended to work for a couple months at a time
Finally, on the topic of inflation in the stock market - I always knew this would happen, which is why I did it on its own separate currency (SCX credits) that was tied to the amount of actual SCUE currency available to be traded out. This meant that it could safely inflate there (which, I think, is what people expect stock exchanges to do over the long term) without screwing with the actual SCUE currency. Not sure I made this clear when people started using the SCX credits as separate currency, but it was always an intentional design feature when the SCX was first created. To be honest, I remain really impressed that people actually still use something I spent months coding back in the day.
Andreas
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
"He showed up three or four years ago and accidentally took over the micronational world by being way more competent and enthusiastic than everyone else. Now he sort of rules us all, but it's a benevolent sort of thing, as far as we know."
~Scott Alexander
Re: Reforming the SCUE
I broadly agree. The short term Hammish model is to set up an alternate currency, but we are suffering a few problems with activity in the meantime. I hope people will engage with your post.
-
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:12 pm
Re: Reforming the SCUE
Andreas the Wise wrote:Allow an old codger to add my two cents.
First, if it's helpful, back when we were trying to get a micronational journal working, I wrote up (as best I could remember/reference) a history of major micronational economic models I've seen and the problems they've encountered. It doesn't help so much with solutions, but should be of interest for people wanting to get a good grasp at what's been tried before. You can find it here (it's split into 8 parts for some reason, so you have to keep clicking through to read it all). It also discusses the difference between 'real'/OOC and 'simulated'/IC economies, which is probably of interest given the above discussion.
Second, given the trend of the SCUE in recent years (lots of people joining, few interested in actually doing anything with their money, and some profiting from the collapse of big nations like Antica as government funds were carved up), if there is interest in renewing micronational economies broader than a single nation, it might well be time to wind up the SCUE as it currently is and start a new economic agreement with new currency, but using the same bank infrastructure. As Liam said, it really is very helpful having the same currency (and for that matter, para-banking infrastructure like the SCX) across nations, because apart from a few economic nerds (guilty!) most people don't want to mess around with currency trading to be able to get anything done internationally. It's also a fair point that different nations want different things out of their economy - real vs simulated etc. The SCUE tried the umbrella church to include everyone; that hasn't worked. Putting a little more structure around what economy you're joining with the shared currency is probably helpful, even if that means you end up running several currencies in parallel (e.g. one for people who want complex simulations, one for a real economy based on transactions between actual micronationalists etc.).
Up to you guys though - I'm just one of those old people who checks in once every six months or so to moan about how it's not like the good old days, when micronational economies still didn't work but at least they pretended to work for a couple months at a time
Finally, on the topic of inflation in the stock market - I always knew this would happen, which is why I did it on its own separate currency (SCX credits) that was tied to the amount of actual SCUE currency available to be traded out. This meant that it could safely inflate there (which, I think, is what people expect stock exchanges to do over the long term) without screwing with the actual SCUE currency. Not sure I made this clear when people started using the SCX credits as separate currency, but it was always an intentional design feature when the SCX was first created. To be honest, I remain really impressed that people actually still use something I spent months coding back in the day.
I am perhaps seeing these comments by Andreas for the first time. As usual,
his words are wise and informed about SCUE, as one of its inventors. I think
Andreas' second point in which he states that we should try a reset of the entire
Micras economy is a good one. Currently, it has become imbalanced. Also, it
has a lack of usage in general.
-
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:39 am
Re: Reforming the SCUE
I'm going to toot my own horn here, again, by stating that New Zimia represents the gold standard for economics in this community. If you are genuinely interested in participating in a simple yet robust, proven, and growing economy, then you ought to hit me up. Between Passio-Corum, Passas, and the Maritime Markets, I have established a network of markets which should appeal to anyone who is interested in trade.
""YJD: Een Recwar is prima zolang Bijaro niet deelneemt."